Submitted by Grenville Phillips II, Leader of Solutions Barbados
The Barbados National Trust has the lawful responsibility of identifying Barbados’ historical treasures, for their preservation. They examined the underground building at Fort George, and found nothing of historical significance to deserve being listed. Their sorry excuse was that they were given a choice of either its complete demolition, or providing water to Barbadians.
It took a special type of blind trust, for the National Trust to believe that those were our only two options. The BWA could have placed their new water tank at a lower elevation west of the underground building. If the BWA claimed that they needed the additional height, then they could have built a tank with a smaller diameter and greater height, or they could have used an elevated tank.
Even if the BWA insisted on constructing their new 1.5 million-gallon water tank over the priceless international treasure, they could have done so. How? Because the building was so exceptionally designed and built, that it could have easily supported the weight of 1.5 million gallons of water plus the tank.
A comfortable factor of safety used when designing foundations is 3. Which means that the foundation can support 3 times the maximum expected load. The underground building could have supported over 4 times the entire weight of the full water tank. Therefore, not only did the building not have to be demolished, but the marvel of having the building supporting 1.5 million gallons of water would have proved its exceptional design.
After the BWA stopped all demolition, the Barbados National Trust’s sole responsibility was to get the building listed and have their plaque installed – nothing else. Had the National Trust performed their basic duty, then the BWA would have been forced to justify the lunacy of demolishing one of the most important international heritage buildings on this planet, to the Town and Country Development Planning Office.
If the BWA demolished a listed building without Planning permission, then the recently passed Planning and Development Bill makes the person at the BWA who ordered the demolition, and the Contractor, liable to a fine of $500,000, or imprisonment for 10 years, or both. By colluding with the BWA to destroy this exceptional building, the National Trust denied the Planning office their critical role of representing our interests.
The Barbados National Trust failed Barbados, and the international community of nations, by choosing not to have the building listed. The National Trust had no business negotiating with the BWA in secret, to completely demolish this building. The demolition contractor noted that they would never have demolished the building had it been listed. The only conceivable reason to consider demolishing such a building was if it was structurally unstable.
The demolition contractor explained that the building was so stable and well-constructed, that it resisted all of their normal attempts to demolish it. This was an engineering marvel, where even impact demolition loads were efficiently distributed throughout the building to its foundations.
This was likely one of the last buildings to be designed by one person who was both an Architect and an Engineer, where the structure was the art. Around the time of its design, the disciplines were separated, and the architect concentrated on the art while the Engineer concentrated on calculating the safe strength.
The building demonstrated the quality of work our fore-parents could achieve away from the slave master. The workmanship was exquisite. There was so much that we were supposed to learn about our past from this building. Thanks Barbados National Trust.
Since it would not be demolished like any normal building, the contractor resorted to construction methods used when excavating through hard rock. He used the heavy hammer. Still the building resisted. This wonderful building had survived generations of: colonial rule, major hurricanes, earthquakes, and misuse.
Even after its betrayal by the Barbados National Trust, it still went down fighting. There was so much redundancy in the redistribution of loads, that it simply would not collapse. It was designed to protect its occupants regardless of the amount of expected damage to individual blocks. But purposeful demolition was not foreseen.
The Barbados National Trust not only ensured that there will be no consequences for this atrocity, but they set a dangerous precedent for other developers. Namely, if anyone wants to demolish a historically important building in Barbados, just call the Barbados National Trust, bamboozle them with any nonsense, and you are good to go.
I personally think they’re up for architectural design than sought for a remedy, tow the water and fill up the tanks🙄
So why did hypocrite Frazer jump out yammering on and on about the significance of the find, these wannbe, joke historians never fail to amuse..
I agree, the BNT let down the country!!
Same sort of issue with Greenland back in the days of Paul Altman!!
… and yes I am a life member!!
Grenville, you are hurting my heart! Please say you are exaggerating! No, no, nooooooooo!
BARBADOS NATIONAL TRUST?… BARBADOS NATIONAL DISTRUST!
WHERE ARE THE BARBADIAN HISTORIANS NOW?
THE HISTORIANS WANTED TO PRESERVE WHAT WAS LEFT OF IT ….
“With about 50 per cent of the structure already destroyed, Sir Henry Fraser and Dr Karl Watson have called on authorities to preserve what is left of it.
Watson, who is a past president of the Trust, described the “historic 19th century water storage underground facility” as beautiful.
Insisting that what remained of the structure should be preserved, Watson suggested that it could be used to tell a part of the island’s rich history.
“People would love to go and see it. You could have dinners in it. You could have concerts in it. You could think of many things to do. You have to,” he said.
The historian said it was the site where “the planned Fort George started but was then abandoned”.
https://barbadostoday.bb/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_2783.jpg
SIR HENRY WHO COULD HARDLY CONTAIN HIS EXCITEMENT, DESCRIBED THE STRUCTURE AS AMAZING, INSISTING THAT IT WAS OF “ENORMOUS HISTORICAL INTEREST AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL VALUE”.
https://barbadostoday.bb/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_2849-650×324.jpg
Professor Henry Fraser “Clearly there is a lot of damage to the structure, but there is a lot more to be seen, there is a lot more to be discovered. Clearly the Barbados National Trust, the Barbados Museum and the people at the Garrison Historical Consortium and an appropriate archaeological and engineering team need to be established as a matter of urgency . . . This is of such enormous value for our history, for our people and for our tourism, of course. So this has huge intrinsic value as well as economic value,” he said.
“This is a solid structure, the walls are several feet thick. It is astonishing that this was hidden and there was no oral history or memory being passed on,” he added.
He is especially happy that Chief Executive Officer of the BWA Keithroy Halliday was able to put a stop to the demolition.”
In a statement this evening, the BWA said It has been agreed that until further investigations can be carried out by the Ministry of Energy and Water Resources, the Barbados National Trust and the BWA, work on the project would be halted.”
Read More @ https://barbadostoday.bb/2019/08/20/fort-george-find/
https://www.facebook.com/BarbadosNationalTrust/photos/pcb.2466950480040215/2466909183377678/?type=3&theater
Destruction of this HERITAGE structure is nothing short of CRIMINAL. The negro population is hell bent on destroying all evidence of colonial slave history. They have yet not realized that eliminating the physical will not erase the written or remembered HISTORY. This was a genuine opportunity to have a profit making TOURIST attraction and promote Barbados history. Instead the powers to be, RH’s, JACKASS, MORONS etc no matter what you call them are promoting Hal’s FAILED STATE STATUS.
BOGGLES my mind that theses same people call themselves HIGHLY EDUCATED.
“Our membership is back where it was and still growing.”
But the Solutions Barbados leader declined to identify the new members. He claimed that many of then feared victimization and therefore preferred to work from the shadows.
Phillips said: “Some of my members are concerned with victimization and there are certain political operatives who have taken things said on the political campaign very seriously and therefore they see it as their role to persecute those who do not share their views.”
He insisted that he does not believe that Cabinet Ministers are involved in the alleged victimization.
He added: “This is a very unfortunate situation because everybody should be allowed to work. We have situations where political operatives are calling your clients to get you fired.
“This should not happen in Barbados.
“So I told my members that unless you are comfortable speaking publicly and have no problem being a target, then they should remain out of that limelight.”(Quote)
Next, the House of Parliament. Just think of it; a nice new fifteen storey hotel, right smack in the middle of Bridgetown with the ground floor dedicated to a beautiful modern shopping mall. I’m salivating already. How about it National Trust. Did I beat you to it?
It looks more and more like somebody just wanted the bricks!!
Donna: I am still hurting to the point of wishing that I had never laid eyes on the brilliant structure.
Please note that I do not normally criticise anyone in a volunteer position for their mistakes. We all make mistakes. The odd mistake shows that we are actually doing something. When we make a mistake, we should repent and move on.
Our concern is that the Barbados National Trust does not think that they made a mistake. They have set a dangerous precedent of frustrating the normal dispute resolution process.
The BWA is responsible for providing water to Barbadians by any means necessary, including demolishing historical treasures if necessary. The National Trust is responsible for preserving these historical treasures. They will be obvious tension, which is supposed to be initially resolved by Planning.
Either side can appeal Planning’s decision to the Tribunal, and the Minister responsible for Planning, the Prime Minister, will then rule on the appeal.
Our hope is that this article will act as a catalyst to bring the National Trust back to its mandate, an allow the normal process to occur. The National Trust is not supposed to be in collusion with those with whom there is a necessary and healthy tension.
I hope that the National Trust will simply repent, and use this as a teachable moment to continue doing the good work for which they were known. Or, they can keep trying to justify their mistake.
Grenville,
I can understand your pain is worse being an engineer and seeing that engineering marvel, but there are tears in my eyes at present.
You say they have not admitted their mistake. Do they not understand that we need something to hold on to? This was done too hastily. There should be a longer process and backstops built in to catch such mistakes. Were you given an opportunity to render an opinion on a way around it?
Man cannot live by water alone. He must also have a reason to live. He must understand that he is worthy of living.
As strongly built as the fort was it still is no more.
Like the Titanic which was unsinkable, it too met its end.
Everything man creates is just for a time and will pass away!!
@WURA-WAR-on-U October 8, 2019 7:29 AM
“So why did hypocrite Frazer jump out yammering on and on about the significance of the find, these wannbe, joke historians never fail to amuse.”
I am glad you made the above observation. About twenty-years ago in the press there was an article by Frazer condemning the consumption of chocolate. I wrote an article in the press pointing out benefits to be derived from chocolate consumption ( anti-oxidant effects) Who told me to do so( it resulted in Frazer stating that I did not know what I was talking about). Fortunately I was able to reply to the blow-hard. I wanted to know how come a physician who was not trained the discipline ,could know more about the topic than some one who was actually trained in the particular field? I went on to state that I was correcting the incorrect data that he was disseminating to the public.
I also made the point that in third -world countries, this sort of activity was the norm. You have persons who haven’t a clue keeping the most noise. After a while the public start recognizing them as authorities. The worst part of the whole saga is the fact that the perpetrators of the con, after a time actually believe what their are preaching.
Correction their should be THEY.
re
john
Everything man creates is just for a time and will pass away!!
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.. 1 PETER 1:25
Grenville
Even Pachamama is wid yuh on this one.
Of course, there will soon come a time in the evolution of this thread where the duopoly enters the arena.
A duopoly to which all political parties are members – wittingly or unwittingly
At that point then, the position ante is reestablished. LOL
Man creates out of God’s creativity. It should be celebrated for as long as possible and not destroyed unnecessarily.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learnt!!
Wunna real feel a poo poo antiquity going stop people like Maloney and Williams and their political friends from making money? Wunna smoking dope or what? Things gotta build and money gotta pass bro!
GPII ain’t write about this twice already? Stupse!
@Enuff
What is the issue with returning to a topic if one is passionate about it? A number of other reasons are in play, Grenville unearthed additional information. How else can citizens and authorities be sensitised about an important issue if it is not repeated?
GP2, You already know my views on this subject. I would be interested to know if Barbados has a recent history (over the last thirty years of refurbishing or restoring old buildings. The only project that comes to my mind is St Nicholas Abbey plantation house.
Take a good look at Bridgetown’s decaying inner city. There is no other English speaking Caribbean island that has a larger portfolio of historical structures than Barbados.
Barbadians have a limited knowledge of the built environment and has a culture which under appreciates the importance of architecture and its significance from a historical perspective; and the role it could play in the rejuvenation of our old capital city.
The demolition of this structure should therefore not have come as a great surprise. Was it not black Bajans who threw out of their homes in the fifties, sixties and SEVENTIES magnificent mahogany furniture built in a vernacular style made in Barbados to purchase inferior furniture from Mrs Ram and other retailers. I heard that the tourists of the day picked up the discarded antiques for free. We ask too much from a people who have a limited cultural knowledge of architecture.
TLSN
Brilliant!👍🏾
TLSN:
When these things happen and we choose to ignore them, then we are passive supporters of what you have described. Those who try to shut down discussion on such issues are active supporters.
Can this action be reported to the World Heritage Foundation with dire consequences?
David:
It is like we won a lottery worth US$200 Billion. We do not need to find oil, or be taxed anymore with such a fortune. Then someone at the BWA ordered that the ticket be torn up, and the BNT then flushed the pieces down the toilet. Now we are being told to just forget all about it.
Countries with civilizations going back thousands of years treasure their ancient buildings, and preserve them for all of humanity. If the building had to go (and it did not), then since it was constructed out of block masonry, we could have simply labelled each block, dismantled the building, and erected it elsewhere. The blocks were so perfectly cut that this would have been easily possible. We did not need to hastily destroy it, and then try to cover it up.
GP2, it is pointless lamenting the destruction of this structure. How many Bajans had prior knowledge of its existence? How can we educate the majority population to embrace and to expand their knowledge of their country’s architectural patrimony? We still have many architectural gems on the island. What of all those dilapidated windmills. I believe that we only have one working windmill on the island that has been fully restored. What of the magnificent Empire theatre which was once a virtual white enclave. Look at its symbolic decline under numerous black run governments. No white led government would have allowed the Empire to turn into a ruin. There is a pattern here. After fifty years of independence we are still not ready to govern ourselves.
@ TLSN
I saw the Ten Commandments at the Empire. A white enclave? The Empire has been empty since the 1960s. Who owns the freehold? Have the taxes been paid over the years?
This is a false statement.
It was terrible what happened with the fort.
Yes the analogy to the lottery ticket is fair.
But the simple fact is that after the destruction of the lottery ticket or fort we are still the same.
We live, move and have our being just as we did before.
We really aren’t any different except perhaps there is obviously regret
So what is the lesson to be learnt?
@John
It seems you have no appreciation for the humanities. We (humanoids) are defined by what we do, the values we shape; how we interact with the environment.
#etc
@ Hal,
I bow to your years and your knowledge. Are you saying that the Empire has been abandoned these last fifty years? Just left to rot away. Would it not have been better to have sold it to a private concern.
@TLSN
What I am saying is that I saw the Ten Commandments at the Empire in the 1950s; I left Barbados in the 1960s and the Empire was closed then. Unless it re-opened, yes it has been closed for all that time.
Again, this is a false statement but we know your intransigence is legendary on BU.
@ TLSN
As one who attended dozens of auction sales, I can tell you that many people have held on to the mahogany furniture. I have never seen two tourists at any auction sale neither have I seen antique furniture by the side of the road.
I will however admit that the furniture did find its way out of the country from time to time.
The assault on buildings and other historic sites did not start yesterday. The country has been allowed to deteriorate for the last thirty or so years. What we are witnessing now is the usual crocodile tears. Bridgetown lost its charm many years ago; underground water mains have been leaking since the 70s; roads have been lacking maintenance since the 80s.
Same with buses and everything else including garbage disposal. No amount of partisan mumbo jumbo can change facts and truth.
We just did not take proper care of our country. We are ALL to blame !
Let us try to do so now and forget all the long stupid ignorant political talk.
TLSN et al:
The windmills and Empire Theater (which was open in the 70s) are in a poor condition. The high maintenance of the buildings resulted in a high renovation cost – which no one has yet been able to afford.
The underground building was in a very good condition, and given its location, was very low-maintenance. It required very little renovation cost. It was also finished for a governor. It was a gift of a find. But then we played the lunatic.
Rather than be patriotic for once, and try to do something to ensure that this atrocity never happens again, the yardfowls and haters continue clucking as if nothing has happened.
David: You have some rare fortitude.
Are we talking about the same building, the Empire Cinema, across the road from Golden Square, opposite Bethel Methodist church? If so, that has been gong for decade. As I said, I saw the Ten Commandments there in the 1950s on a school trip. It was closed for most of the 1960s.
@ Hal at 4:02 PM.
The Empire Theatre was still functioning in th1970s.
@ Vincent
Then, as I have suggested, it re-opened. It was closed in the 1960s. I remember it well because I used to help Michael Bayne and Shirley Lashley in operating the projectors at the Globe cinema as a young teenager and it was a regulator part of the conversation. In fact, the Ten Commandments was the only time I have ever been to the Empire as a school boy. I preferred the Olympic and Plaza with my late cousin..
To repeat, the Empire was closed for most of the 1960s, but I accept it re-opened in the 1970s.
@ Nextparty246,
It is evident to us all that Barbados does not have the finc to maintain her historical buildings. Factor in a lack of interest and knowledge from the locals and we are in position where our Built environment will erode into a waste land. Barbados needs to off-load these buildings and to allow the private sector to manage and run them at a profit. Germany is one of the best countries in the world for adapting her old industrial and historical buildings into living and functioning units which serves and encourages members of the public to support and to participate in these projects.
Government is creating a database of its unoccupied and derelict buildings.
This was revealed yesterday by Charles Griffith, Minister in the Ministry of Housing and Lands during yesterday’s debate in the House of Assembly on a resolution to approve the vesting and disposal of Crown lands at The Pine, St Michael.
https://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/242148/database-derelict-buildings-coming
Enuff,
Can anybody post anything that meets with your approval? SMH. If you aren’t interested it does not mean that the rest of us can’t be. This is Grenville’s area of expertise.
We speak about nine day wonders and no follow up. Well, Grenville is following up.
But with some you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
@ Hal
Not to worry. The important point is that the Empire is part of our built environment with architectural value and it should be restored.
Personally. I would maintain its original purpose that of theatre not cinema. Doubling as a Town Hall and conference facility.
I have never been in the empire and I have not seen inside the fort but I would have rather they has flattened the empire than the fort. I would have gladly pay so of my left over U$D to tour the half destroyed fort than to go into the empire.
I can’t say with any certainty whether the Empire was closed for any part of the 60’s but I do know it was open during the 60’s. In the 70’s it was also operating for a while under the management of Trinidad born Maurice Jones who also operated Roodals Drive In.
David
October 9, 2019 3:47 PM
@John
It seems you have no appreciation for the humanities. We (humanoids) are defined by what we do, the values we shape; how we interact with the environment.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Since all of Barbados did not have a clue about the fort (environment) does your logic lead to the conclusion that all Barbadians are not humanoid?
… sup – humanoid or super – humanoid??
@John A
Does it matter? We could have gone on.
How we interact with the undiscovered and unknown. The intelligence we exert on situations that confront us.
The BWA could have placed their new water tank at a lower elevation west of the underground building. If the BWA claimed that they needed the additional height, then they could have built a tank with a smaller diameter and greater height, or they could have used an elevated tank.
Even if the BWA insisted on constructing their new 1.5 million-gallon water tank over the priceless international treasure, they could have done so. How? Because the building was so exceptionally designed and built, that it could have easily supported the weight of 1.5 million gallons of water plus the tank.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So why didn’t they figure that out in the week they stopped?
Surely there were perfectly capable engineers that could have reached these conclusions on their own?
Smaller diameter, elevated tank, greater height means what?
The prestressed concrete slabs being manufactured would not be needed!!!
We will probably see a Preconco built, concrete reservoir appear on Mount Charity!!
It seems that some things remain hidden, in the hope that the find will be appreciated. We keep proving that unless we mature, we remain the most stupid of all of God’s creation.
If we eat and exercise, our bodies will grow naturally. If we understand information, our minds will develop naturally. However, we, the soul can remain infantile without love. When love is absent, it is easy for that place to be occupied by hate. However, we are normally taught to hate.
Soldiers, who love their families and communities, are taught to hate their enemies, so that they can kill them efficiently. Abortionists are taught a special type of hate for the tissue preventing a woman from reaching her ‘full potential’, so that they can kill babies efficiently. Political operatives are taught to hate those who can be a threat to their party, so that they can sacrifice their integrity and become the absolute worst of us.
The BWA, Barbados National Trust, and the Barbados Museum and Historical Society (who I have learnt was also complicit in this atrocity) can perhaps explain what motivated them to behave so badly.
@ Sergeant at 8:50 PM.
Your recollection of the Empire theater is the same as mine. I love films and preferred the Empire. I was only absent for three years in the late 1960s. But I attended movies during my summer holidays there.
There you have it.
One lesson learnt.
Name and shame is an approach!!
It took me all of 10 minutes to search Schomburgk and see what was destroyed was probably the magazine from c.1780.
There really is no excuse.
Which tells me there is a lot more in the mortar than the pestle!!
@nextparty246October 10, 2019 7:52 AM “Abortionists are taught a special type of hate for the tissue preventing a woman from reaching her ‘full potential’, so that they can kill babies efficiently.”
I doubt this.
I expect that women terminate pregnancies, because they KNOW that physical, emotional, and financial support will not be forthcoming from the man who has impregnated them.
if you doubt me look around you and see the number of children who receive nothing from the men who begat them.
I have not got to it yet but if you think it worthwhile, go look at the Land Tax Enclosures around the Fort and see who owns the land!!!!!!!!
My suspicion is you will be in for a big surprise.
Schomburgk says the site should be 16 acres if memory serves me right!!
So you should see a 16 acre enclosure, the property of the GOB.
Also go to the Public Library upstairs and ask for a copy of the report on historic sites from 1910!!
I suspect that both the BNT and the BMHS rely to some extent on GOB subventions.
Simple Simon,
I don’t know how many women Grenville knows who have had abortions. I suspect he has pulled that opinion out of the air. There are some women who think a child will keep them back but that is USUALLY when they have very little hope of support from the man or their own families.
The only time the AVERAGE woman might “hate” the child she is carrying and want to destroy it is if it was conceived during a rape. The only females who repeatedly have abortions are emotionally damaged teenagers and young adults.
Most women think of abortion as a traumatic experience to be avoided if at all possible.
if you doubt me look around you and see the number of children who receive nothing from the men who begat them.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Are you able to name examples 10?
You don’t have to put them on here but can you?
How do you know the father hasn’t given the mother money for his child.
Hair braids, weaves, jewelry, smart phones, tattoos, clothes etc. cost money too!!
A girl has to look good after all!!
… oh yea, I forgot the gold teet and nose ring!!
John,
Since you like research try sitting in at the Magistrates’ Courts.
Hal Austin you really are a stranger to the truth.As others have stated the Empire was opened all through the seventies and i beleive the early eighties but that is your MO to spread misinformation and when caught out shift the goal post.Then you have the audacity to talk about the bajan condition and Barbados being a failed state.Really?Why don,t you advise the big ups in the UK to bring forward an acceptable Brexit exit know all?You are nowhere in the category of the PM to even tie her bootlaces .Tell me einstein how will Ms Mottley generate neede investment from Parliament or St Michael North East?You need to engage your brain more and blog less.
@TLSN
What I am saying is that I saw the Ten Commandments at the Empire in the 1950s; I left Barbados in the 1960s and the Empire was closed then. Unless it re-opened, yes it has been closed for all that time.(Quote)
Hal Austin you really are a stranger to the truth.As others have stated the Empire was opened all through the seventies and i beleive the early eighties but that is your MO to spread misinformation and when caught out shift the goal post.Then you have the audacity to talk about the bajan condition and Barbados being a failed state………(Quote)
I rest my case.
Hi Donna:
I know that abortion is a sensitive topic, but I was not referring to the victims – pregnant women and children. I specifically referred to someone who could do abortions repeatedly, so that they become experts at doing so efficiently
Again, I was not referring to the mother and child. I do not believe that hate could exist between a mother and child in the womb. She may get: tired, depressed, angry, afraid, even suicidal, as she ponders, or is tormented about her future. Some slaves killed their children out of their own hopeless situation. I was in no way referring to them.
Donna
October 10, 2019 12:32 PM
John,
Since you like research try sitting in at the Magistrates’ Courts.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Been dere done dat!!
… several times!!
Been going to court since 1994/5 !!
… even de Coroner’s Court.
I have never been in a situation where I had to be a part of the decision making process as to whether an unborn child should live or die.
Each one no doubt is different.
Who speaks up for the child?
Even a murderer has a lawyer to speak for him in a court before any decision is made that might end his/her life.
If a single mother gets herself into a relationship with an untrustworthy man, have the child and put that child up for adoption.
There are enough childless couples and adults who long for the baby they cannot have.
Some slaves killed their children out of their own hopeless situation.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Name 10!!!
She may get: tired, depressed, angry, afraid, even suicidal, as she ponders, or is tormented about her future.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How did Moses’ mother (a slave) reach her decision to put him in the Nile with all the crocodiles, condemning him apparently to certain death??
What happened??
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+2%3A1-10&version=KJV
John:
You will find quite a few at the useful research linked below. It noted: “slaves’ statements on infanticide indicate that the killing of one’s children was often conceived of as an altruistic act and that enslaved women who killed their children often did so out of love.”
http://www.inquiriesjournal.com/articles/893/infanticide-as-slave-resistance-evidence-from-barbados-jamaica-and-saint-domingue
Colonial-era fictional and non-fictional descriptions of slave motherhood offer conflicting accounts of the attitudes of slave mothers toward their children. While abolitionists tended to portray slave mothers as wholly selfless, doting, and maternal, pro-slavery writers described slave mothers as negligent and cruel. The debate over the nature of slave motherhood was especially relevant to the Caribbean, where brutal working conditions, disease, and malnutrition impeded slave reproduction. Plantation owners blamed slave women for their failure to reproduce, accusing them of practicing birth control and procuring abortions. In some cases, planters accused slave women of committing infanticide.
It is difficult to ascertain just how often the latter occurred.
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I don’t know about Jamaica but in Barbados the slave population doubled between 1680 and 1817!!
By 1817 93% of the slaves were born here!!
The population was about 77K and you can find each slave named in the returns.
Check here.
https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/britishslaves/
Difficult to believe this document given the numbers!!
… ahhhh .. I see, it is based on fictional and non-fictional references.
In 1817, there were 15 slaves named Grenville in the British Empire.
12 in Jamaica
2 in Grenada
1 in Antigua
While abolitionists tended to portray slave mothers as wholly selfless, doting, and maternal,
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Those abolitionists were Quaker, like the Barbadian Planters … atleast up to the late 18th century!!
Quakers refused to swear oaths and were constantly in trouble with the law!!
Why did they refuse to swear oaths?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_in_law
@ John October 10, 2019 6:17 PM
“Those abolitionists were Quaker, like the Barbadian Planters … atleast up to the late 18th century!!”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are you that spiritually blind that you even can’t see the contradiction and hypocrisy contained in your claim that the Quaker-like Barbadian planters were slave-loving humane-minded abolitionists?
How could have Barbadian planters engaged in a game of Russian roulette of being Quaker-inspired abolitionists with a one-bullet gun aimed at their commercial temple while shooting themselves in their slave-owning foot from 5 empty chambers?
How come your slave-loving Quakers were the first in the slave-owners’ reparations queue to receive timely compensation for loss of their God-given right to property called African slaves but up to this day refuse to back the descendants of those ‘proprietary’ animals to similar claims for back pay due to their enslaved black ancestors which is nothing more than what the Biblical Israelites exacted as the ‘promised land’ from their anthropomorphic Father in the Sky?
Time to call the hazmat crew
People are getting deathly sick
Could it be the water
I am dealing strictly in facts!!
I tell you what, give me the names of slave mothers who killed their children in Barbados … if you can!!
I have given you a database with more than 77000 names of slaves.
Tell me which ones killed their children!!
Are you that spiritually blind that you even can’t see the contradiction and hypocrisy contained in your claim that the Quaker-like Barbadian planters were slave-loving humane-minded abolitionists?
How could have Barbadian planters engaged in a game of Russian roulette of being Quaker-inspired abolitionists with a one-bullet gun aimed at their commercial temple while shooting themselves in their slave-owning foot from 5 empty chambers?
How come your slave-loving Quakers were the first in the slave-owners’ reparations queue to receive timely compensation for loss of their God-given right to property called African slaves but up to this day refuse to back the descendants of those ‘proprietary’ animals to similar claims for back pay due to their enslaved black ancestors which is nothing more than what the Biblical Israelites exacted as the ‘promised land’ from their anthropomorphic Father in the Sky?
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I can’t help you!!
You know not and know not that you know not!!
John:
Why are you trying to dispute what is not in dispute, namely, that some slaves did practise infanticide? The actual numbers may never be known. They may be many or few, depending on the bias of the researcher. But no historian, regardless of their bias, disputes that it did factually (not fictionally) occur.
October 10, 2019 11:08 PM
John:
Why are you trying to dispute what is not in dispute, namely, that some slaves did practise infanticide? The actual numbers may never be known. They may be many or few, depending on the bias of the researcher. But no historian, regardless of their bias, disputes that it did factually (not fictionally) occur.
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How is it different from what happens today?
https://www.insideedition.com/mother-kills-her-2-kids-after-posting-that-she-could-not-ask-for-better-children-55473
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/mother-who-murdered-her-4-children-says-she-misses-them-family-20190910
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-49128716
Google mother kills children.
It happens.
It is not peculiar to the days of slavery.
People have problems and are often overwhelmed by them and do things that make no sense whatsoever.
Most of the scholarly literature on slave infanticide focuses on slavery in the antebellum United States.25 In this literature, recorded cases of infanticide are frequently dismissed as anomalies and followed by lengthy declarations of slave women’s maternal aptitude.26 The effect of this is to imply that infanticide excludes the possibility of parental love, and vice-versa. The truth is somewhat more complex. As Darlene Clark Hine and Kathleen Thompson explain in A Shining Thread of Hope: The History of Black Women in America, slaves’ statements on infanticide indicate that the killing of one’s children was often conceived of as an altruistic act and that enslaved women who killed their children often did so out of love.27
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What does ante bellum United States mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antebellum_South
I am dealing with Barbados.
Slavery was finally abolished in the US a generation after it was abolished in Barbados.
What do you think happened in the slave population that went east to Arab lands?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/when-infanticide-isnt-mur_b_279703
Women do have emotional problems after childbirth …. it is normal.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/when-infanticide-isnt-mur_b_279703
@ John
Is abortion infanticide?
Yes.
@John
Did some slave mothers commit abortion?
@Grenville
What has become of the Antiquities Bill? Is it still languishing in committee? Would we (citizens) have been able to hold government accountable in some way for destroying that never to be heritage site at Fort George?
Down the rabbit hole they went with their little cylindrical boxes.
“Some ideas are square” said one.
“Never mind, we will find a cylindrical box big enough to hold them”
Hal Austin
October 11, 2019 5:03 AM
@John
Did some slave mothers commit abortion?
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I would have thought your next question would have been how many abortions occur today!!
So, here is a link for the US.
http://www.numberofabortions.com/
Since 1973, there have been 18,5 million aborted black babies.
Since the entire slave population in 1865 in the US was about 4 million it would seem that whether or not slave mothers committed abortion would be irrelevant!!
… but it’s all a matter of priorities!!
Abortionists are taught a special type of hate for the tissue preventing a woman from reaching her ‘full potential’, so that they can kill babies efficiently.
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What would you say to this statement now that you realise infanticide today has grown way beyond whatever may have occurred in the 19th century?
I would say Grenville is spot on!!
He should forget slavery in the US and look at infanticide today!!
How do members of the medical profession which has as a basic tenet “do no harm” get to exterminate 18.5 million black babies?
What percentage of these exterminations were initiated by black mothers who have untrustworthy partners?
In the US today, Incest and rape account for about 7K exterminations out of the approximate 750K exterminations.
Seems obscene to approximate and convert this to a statistic but you could.
Today there have been almost 900 exterminations so far in the US.
Sobering!!
Anyway, what was the topic of the blog???!!
@ John October 10, 2019 10:02 PM
“I can’t help you!!
You know not and know not that you know not!!”
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What you can do, though, is to tell the BU readership whether the same Fort George which was recently turned into an archaeological sacrifice to the god of destruction Apophis by the Bajan-brand of philistine- was built with the blood, sweat and excessively hard labour from the backs of enslaved blacks.
If you agree that ‘free’ black labour- except the worth of a few pounds of ground food, ‘sugared’ water and shots of ‘kill-devil’ liquor aka Bajan hot rum- played a major role in the construction of that fort in the name of the mad King George now turned into quarry-filling rubble, then you ought to be pricking your Quaker conscience and state here on BU that you support, unequivocally, demands for reparations from the British Crown.
“Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.” ~Elbert Hubbard
What you can do, though, is to tell the BU readership whether the same Fort George which was recently turned into an archaeological sacrifice to the god of destruction Apophis by the Bajan-brand of philistine- was built with the blood, sweat and excessively hard labour from the backs of enslaved blacks.
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Probably not and it is kind of obvious, surprised you hadn’t twigged!!
The British Army was in the process of being garrisoned here and they built Fort George equivalent to or stronger than the Fort George in New York which had been destroyed in the war of American Independence.
Probably the Royal Corps of Engineers and the soldiers stationed here built it.
No doubt there was assistance from slaves hired from their owners but I suspect the Quaker tendencies of their owners probably limited their involvement.
A lot of the bricks in the photos look as though they were manufactured abroad and arrived here as ballast.
A hundred years earlier Quakers were routinely fined for not providing assistance in the maintenance of forts so it would not surprise me to find that locals were against the building of the fort.
I would say the fort was built primarily with labour from the ranks of soldiers here with some help from locals.
God is good!
Shep Smith LEAVES Fox News
October 11, 2019
https://www.dailyconservative.com/sc2/shep-smith-leaves-fox-news.htm
iF I AM WATCHING —–AT 3 PM I NO LONGER HAVE TO RUN FOR MY REMOTE
John:
The following is from the ‘The History of Barbados’, on slaves’ contribution to building forts in Barbados.
“The fortifications at St. Anne’s were much increased in pursuance of the Duke of Richmond’s plan for the defence of the West India Islands in 1789 to 1792, to which the island merely contributed the labour of negroes according to the existing law, and left the other expenses to Government.”
@ John October 11, 2019 4:15 PM
“A hundred years earlier Quakers were routinely fined for not providing assistance in the maintenance of forts so it would not surprise me to find that locals were against the building of the fort.
I would say the fort was built primarily with labour from the ranks of soldiers here with some help from locals.”
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What are you saying here, John?
That those red-legs soldiers from Limey land were quite able in doing the heavy lifting and toiling in the hot sun of the Caribbean?
What happened to the white trash and criminals of British towns and cities after they were ‘Barbadosed’? Did they too work their pale asses off under the hot boiling sun in Newcastle St. John?
If there was that ready supply and overabundance of pale-skin labour of riffraff and street urchins from ‘Great’ Britain why was there a need to rape the gold coast of a ‘black’ continent of its human resources to work under the same hotly harsh conditions?
Just for the greed of sugar-sweet pieces of silvery profit why did a so-called Christianized race bring about a curse which has left not only an indelible mark of shame on the British and their Western European allies in genocide but also a ‘blackened’ albatross of racial inferiority and social subservience around the economic necks of a psychologically-burdened people?
But knowing your track record of being an apologist for black chattel slavery in the West, you would easily counter the above searing indictable question by arguing that it was for the salvation of the barbaric African.
It was a Hobson’s choice of selecting the ‘blackened’ horse to hell.
Either come West (once you survive the shark-infested Middle Passage) and live in Christian Quaker-like paradise with the white master in his castle or be transported to the East to work in the Islamic hellholes as a castrated comical creature of the sultan.
That makes sense.
The Quaker ways of thinking would have made the militarizing of Barbados merely tolerable because it was on orders from England.
It would be professional soldiers whose job it was to undertake these works.
For sure slaves were also enlisted.
In 1794, when Martinique and Guadeloupe were captured by forces from Barbados slaves were present as pioneers.
Again these would have been hired from their owners with a promise of reward to their owners for providing them.
Check Sir John Jervis, 1794 and his expedition to Martinique also in Schomburgk.
Guadeloupe was also captured but retaken by the French under Victor Hugues with losses to the British.
The memorial at the top of Paddock Road, just outside the Museum names the soldiers who lost their lives and their regiment.
See page 352 and 353 of Schomburgk.
Nothing in Schomburgk about Guadeloupe.
Shortly after 1794, the British West India Regiment was formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_West_Indies_Regiment
This is a good source, a chronological history up to 1816 of the BWI
https://books.google.com/books?id=dP9aDzarxmIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
It is in 3 volumes and can be downloaded like Schomburgk.
Poyer to 1805 is also a good source.