The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – A Season of Constitutional Change
Jeff Cumberbatch – New Chairman of the FTC
“The greatest threat to our Constitution is our own ignorance of it…” – Jacob Roecker
“How easily men satisfy themselves that the Constitution is exactly what they wish it to be…” –Joseph Story
It would appear that the several jurisdictions in the region or, at least, some of them, have been seized simultaneously with the urge to re-examine their Constitutions and to reform these in some particular or other.
Later this week I am scheduled to participate in a panel discussion in Antigua & Barbuda on that twin state’s possible accession to the appellate jurisdiction of the Caribbean Court of Justice [CCJ]; an initiative that is to be the subject of an upcoming referendum as is constitutionally required in that jurisdiction and some others, once a delinking from the Judicial Committee of Her Majesty’s Privy Council is contemplated. It is an interesting contrast that no identical procedure was deemed necessary for that latter tribunal’s adoption at the coming into force of the Constitution.
And, as if it were irremovable from the public discourse, the notion of Barbados assuming formal de jure republican status returned last week with some force in a widely-reported panel discussion, despite an earlier and rather emphatic denial by a senior public officer, situated in the office of the Prime Minister no less, that this specific reform was not being considered currently.
On that occasion, one of the more newsworthy items, for obvious reasons -given our penchant for intrigue and the prurient-, proved to be the revelation that there had been an earlier effort to draft a “republican Constitution” for Barbados. In light of this information, most people seemed shocked that so significant a national development could have been undertaken “in secret”.
I tend to agree with the popular sentiment to some extent. While I understand, of course, that the draftsmanship of a Constitution is a technical exercise that would be best left to those who may be skilled in the area –that is, the drafting of Constitutions and not necessarily constitutional law-, the very nature of such a document demands intensive public participation in its broad outlines.
The Constitution connotes by definition that it is a document “constitutive” of the nation, and is not merely to be treated as any other piece of legislation. It is, otherwise put, a creation of the people, by the people, for the people. Hence their consent to its provisions should sedulously be sought.
I do not agree that this requirement would have been constituted (pardon the pun) by the views expressed to the admittedly wide-ranging Forde Commission. After all, to the best of my knowledge, this body was charged merely with eliciting popular opinion on general constitutional reform, as opposed to the precise elements of the form of governance that would ensue. In other words, once republican status had been considered the desired constitutional arrangement, only then what the international lawyers call the “travaux préparatoires” would have assumed pride of place through the determination of the finer points of that arrangement.
Indeed, if memory serves me correctly, the drafting of a “republican” constitution would have been precipitate in any event, since the actuality of this was officially hinged on the outcome of a referendum on a question that naysayers were to quick to seize on and to object to as insulting their “intelligence” when, as a matter of law and fact, it was the direct answer to that question that would have provided the irreducible minimum of formal republic status. Maybe that was the true reason for the re-drafting of the Constitution –simply to give those persons and their ilk additional fodder on which to vent their monarchical spleen!
I have also been made privy recently to a number of Bills that indicate the contemplation of substantial Constitutional reform in Grenada. According to the Grenada Government Gazette of February 12, 2016, these Bills, all styled Constitution of Grenada (…)(Amendment) Bills, were read for the first time in Parliament in early December last year.
They comprise (i) A Bill to restrict anyone from holding the office of Prime Minister who has held this office for three consecutive Parliamentary terms prior; (ii) A Bill to prescribe a fixed date for general elections; (iii) a Bill to ensure that there is the appointment of a Leader of the Opposition in Parliament even if, as has happened, all the members of the House of Representatives are members of the political party that forms the Government; (iv) A Bill to permit Grenada’s accession to the appellate jurisdiction of the CCJ; (v) A Bill to provide for the formal re-structuring of the Constitution; (vi) A Bill to change the name of the State from Grenada to Grenada, Carriacou and Petite Martinique; (vi) A Bill to establish an Elections and Boundaries Commission; and (vii) A Bill to refine the Chapter protecting fundamental rights and freedoms; to provide expressly for Directive Principles of State Policy; and to insert a new Chapter on Gender Equality.
These should provide ample material for legal scholars, and political and other social commentators to reflect on. I am especially provoked by the last Bill mentioned above that seeks, inter alia, to increase the kinds of conduct that would constitute discrimination, by adding to the traditionally proscribed grounds, those relating to disability, ethnicity, language and social class; to guarantee the right of a child to education; to require the state to aim at enhancing the supply of food, water and health facilities; and to domesticate relevant treaties.
In this existing climate of formal constitutional change in the region however, it is imperative that citizens become more familiar with the workings of the relevant document. I have often expressed my intrigue in this space at some of the assertions, not all populist or lay, as to what may be contained in the Constitution and what conduct may be contrary to its provisions.
We have had the Bar Association finding therein an express right to work; and relatively recent assertions that it would be unconstitutional for the police to arrest someone on suspicion of him or her being about to commit an offence; that the conferral of a knighthood is included in the Constitution; that the choice of Opposition leader is restricted to members of one political party; that the Attorney General must be a member of the Lower House; and that the Prime Minister may be removed by a simple majority of members of the House that support the government advising the Governor-General of their change of heart. These are all, if nothing else, mythical.
Barbados Underground 
On that occasion, one of the more newsworthy items, for obvious reasons -given our penchant for intrigue and the prurient-, proved to be the revelation that there had been an earlier effort to draft a “republican Constitution” for Barbados. In light of this information, most people seemed shocked that so significant a national development could have been undertaken “in secret”.
I tend to agree with the popular sentiment to some extent.”
Just curious Jeff….to which extent don’t you agree, there should be no secrecy re the drafting of the new constitution or it’s content to the public.
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@Mr. Cumberbatch, another thought-provoking article. I am wondering how much about the Constitution are citizens exposed to during their formative years. Besides learning about the powers and structures of the three branches of government as part of the social studies curriculum, I cannot recall learning much about our Constitution before reading for a particular degree at university. Is it that we need to do more to acquaint our citizens from small with this document, including teaching children, for example, about the Bill of Rights, the limitations on those rights etc? I completely agree there is pervasive ignorance about our supreme law and until such time that citizens are apprised or make themselves apprised of its contents, debates on constitutional reform will be somewhat superficial or a pursuit for the “select” few.
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Here is what was reported, it is scary when you study it.
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@WW&C, there is no problem with the drafting behind closed doors, As I intimated, drafting is a highly technical exercise and should be left to experts. However, the “instructions for that draft should be the result of a participatory act by the citizenry.
Alicia, the course you refer to is called “Civics” and includes, besides a study of the Constitution, other matters that might lead to one becoming a better informed citizen of a democracy. The value of a vote for instance.
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@Mr. Cumberbatch, when I was a student at an older secondary school which will remain unnamed, civics was not a separate course but a component of the social studies curriculum. I cannot recall being taught anything in it besides the structures and powers of the branches of Government. I am wondering if this is still the case and if so, instead of having civics as part of the social studies curriculum, shouldn’t it be a separate subject once again like it was in the older days?
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BU addressed the issue of teaching law/civics:
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Another issue is that in much the same way now that our most recent legislation is being drafted in more “everyday language” and with explanatory notes, shouldn’t we as part of any constitutional reform, redraft the Constitution in language the average citizen can understand? Not everyone has the patience for legalese. We can also have a version with explanatory notes similar to what the US DOJ has done with theirs: https://archive.org/details/TheConstitutionOfTheUSWithExplanatoryNotes
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@David, thanks. That article reinforces my argument.
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We all agree drafting is technical, the ‘business point’ though is that the government of the day in the interest of being transparent never broached the matter. The people deserved to know. To heap wood on the fire the incumbent never disclosed to continue the cloak of secrecy. The citizens had to hear it as if by accident from a person who is known to be a friend of the Prime Minister.
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@Alicia
Redrafting the Constitution in everyday language is a must but understanding what the document represents calls for the education initiative you mentioned. Ordinary citizens need to be able to quote the Constitution to support everyday living in much the same way an American understand 1st Amendment right is this and 4th Amendment rights is that…
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David@7:43am: that is exactly what I am saying. And as I wrote, the Forde Commission never addressed the question of whether we should have a Republican constitution and what would have been in it. This was to be a matter of referendum!
Incidentally, which PM are you referring to?
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Jeff as you suggest, it is reasonable and practical to draft and put together some sort of meaningful framework document for something so significant even before it might be properly ventilated as an option.
Whether the public knew that a draft was being done or not fades to nothing, in my view.
The real and only issue is that any structural governance change would have to be discussed the length and breadth of the country and completely approved. Drafting the doc (secretly or otherwise) and getting public approval of the governance change are different issues completely.
When Barbados moved to independence one assumes that there was key technical document work being done well before Independence was widely accepted publicly!
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@David, I agree. I believe an engaged citizenry requires an enlightened citizenry.
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@Jeff
It is no secret Hal Gollop is a friend of PM Stuart.
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@Dee Word
Look how you walk into links early Sunday morning. See Alicia’s last comment.
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David, I know that. In fact, they shared chambers space in Roebuck St. But it was not Mr Stuart that commissioned the Republican draft.
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We also need more players with legal backgrounds like the Jeffs, Alicias et al engaging ordinary citizens to assist with demystifying a discipline that in its original form was meant to be difficult to understand.
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@Jeff
Agreed, BU however has taken the revelation by Gollop to a conclusion.He can sue if he wants 🙂
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Have you ever heard that an elephant is a mouse made to a committee’s specifications.
To my mind, there is nothing wrong with preparing a draft and then putting it out there for discussion by the public.
By the way, not everyone that has an LLB is an expert on legislative drafting or constitutional law; I therefore wonder about the composition of that committee.
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@Caswell
How can the citizens hold a government(s) accountable if a simple transaction like informing there is a committee setup to amend the Constitution is thought to be top secret information?
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@ Jeff
Are we not putting the cart BEFORE the damn horse here?
What difference does it make what the constitution says if government selectively decides which laws it will obey, ignore, break or misinterpret?
It is complete idiocy – and a waste of time and resources – to be continually talking about introducing ‘new laws’, ‘changing structures’ or moving to republicanism when officials AT ALL LEVELS routinely flout EXISTING LAWS….We can’t even get a MTW official to enforce anti-flooding laws in Holetown…..
Cuh Shiite….
The PM is currently sitting on situations where his ‘friends’ have stolen millions of dollars from CLICO policy holders – and his last comment was related to having a list of investors…
He advised his Speaker of Parliament to get a lawyer ..because stealing his client’s money was ‘just a disagreement between lawyer and client’ – and apparently, he too has suffered similar…
The Central Bank has money in safe-keeping that Commercial Banks REFUSE to touch because of legal questions….
The DPP has been a national embarrassment now for YEARS…without sanction.
MULTIPLE lawyers have been charged with stealing from clients – with no action from the Bar, the Courts. Parliament ….or from UWI who empowered them…
Constitutional reform Bushie’s behind…..
What difference can THAT make…?
Just to have the politicians ignoring NEW laws…?!!
Steupssss….
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David
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that it should be done in secret. All I am saying is that having a draft would give you something to talk about.
Sent from my iPad
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@David at 7:47 AM, that is a very interesting point re Bajan knowing their constitution as Americans know theirs. I too wondered about that when I first visited the US as a student and was confronted with Constitution this, Constitution that. But over the years a few things have crystallized.
The average American knows the constitution exactly along the lines you noted 1st Am – Free Speech…because they want to do as they like verbally ; 2nd Am: The give me my gun crowd and too the 4th Am. re freedom against unlawful search But of course the big one…pleading the Fifth…no self incrimination!
In sum, continued awareness from police and crime movies/TV shows. Now let me also state that it is taught specifically in schools unlike here.
But that fact still holds that many do not know it as well as we sometimes think, particularly beyond the Amendments (and some of the Bill or Rights) and especially beyond those few that are heard most often.
On the Bajan front the very unfortunate thing is that our politicians trample our constitution badly and very seldom do we have any legal challenges publicly ventilated re constitutional matters.
All that to say that learning our constitution is vitally important but we need citizens (lawyers) to aggressively challenge the breaches by the government in order to get us on a path to become more ofay and alert to that important document.
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@Dee Word
Do npt know if it is the water but we are agreeing a lot this morning.
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Bush Tea@ 8:24am, there you go again about UWI “empowering” lawyers. Why do you not blame their day nurseries, primary schools and first degree grantors while you are at it? You do not have a clue about how and when one is admitted to law practice in Barbados, do you?
And are you suggesting that we should live in a state with no laws, because they are ignored? Or is the remedy their enforcement by the citizens? Thing is, one cannot hide behind a pseudonym and do that. Talk, or blogging, I suppose, is cheap!
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@ Jeff
As soon as Bushie finds a day nursery or primary school that hands out LLBs, rest assured that the whacker will be pointed in their direction too…
All Bushie is suggesting is that while it may be fun and even intellectually stimulating to discuss technical aspects of ‘The Law’, it is a waste of time …in an environment where no one seriously FOLLOWS the law anyway….
Surely you get that….
As to UWI’s responsibility, who better do you see in a position to FOLLOW UP on the ethical, technical and social performance of lawyers ..than the EDUCATIONAL body that empowered them in the first place…?
Can you imagine the impact …if UWI ROUTINELY had current students producing RESEARCH papers on the performance, ethical approaches and social impact of CURRENT and past lawyers ….as a VITAL part of the student’s preparation (and as a performance check on existing lawyers, as a guide to modifying the teaching and qualification program etc)?
Or do you REALLY think that we need to wait on the Phillip Nicholls of the world to get FACTS and FIGURES of such an important aspect of our society…?
Who else do you think could play such a role?
Primary schools?
..day nurseries?
…the damn Bar Association…?
steupsss…
Start the damn program next Semester do…!!!
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Bushy, the LLB is only the half of it. And I do not agree that the research agenda you are pushing is one peculiarly for law students. All regionally trained lawyers, including some on BU’s Hall of Shame, are required to pass courses in (i) Office Management and Accounting and (ii) Ethics. Rights and Responsibilities of the Legal Profession. What do you get when you “put lipstick on a pig”?
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Don’t avoid the point Jeff….
Without the LLB, these people would be relegated to being clerks…..
With it…. they INEVITABLY go on to be ‘movers and shakers’ in Barbados.
No LLB…no dice…
As far as the lipstick goes, …no matter how much lipstick a pig applies, a knowledgeable farmer can assess the real value of the pork…. while clueless spectators may be tempted to look to kiss the nasty pig….
THIS is why YOU and your knowledge institution has a particular responsibility to routinely assess these pigs and to provide FACTS and STATISTICS that allow innocent onlookers (and the many brass bowls bout here) to be in a position to identify which pigs may be worth kissing up to…. and which ones to sent to market….
…and come on Jeff man…..
What ‘pass what courses’ what…?!!
Wuh Bushie got all A’s back at his university …including courses based on the ‘theory of Evolution’ and many other shiite topics that the Bushman OPENLY scorned…..
Human Performance control is not only preemptive in nature, …it must also be ongoing and fact based….
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Lol…love it…maybe those courses should extend throughout the years of training, pound them into their heads, but, dont care how many courses you apply, there are lawyers wil stilll find a way to do the opposite.
Serious criminal laws need to be applied to lawyers who breach the public’s trust….here again, the bar association, disciplinary committee, attorney general, chief justice, DPP, all have to change the current way they view criminal acts committed by attorneys….and administer a no nonsense approach, they too are looking incompetent for not making radical changes to the behaviors being displayed by rotten lawyers.
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@Jeff, oh dear are you saying that our Bajan attorneys like wearing lipstick! LOL.
But to Bushie point, the core of it that is, why has the UWI over these many years not used its persuasive power to drive the debate related to legal ethics?
The matter of partnership/attorney drawings, for example, which was a highlight on another thread is a very straight forward ethical matter.
Yet, it was suggested by some bloggers that our attorneys abuse it because there is no specific legal rule preventing it.
Clearly, your ethics course tells the prospective attorneys that using client funds is always a ‘no no’ so why has the UWI not been strong in their public condemnation of these vile practices by their lipstick painted grads?
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@Bush Tea
Why don’t you heap the same opprobrium on people who should know better? Didn’t PM Stuart advise Carrington to get a lawyer and brushed aside ethical and moral concerns raised by the public to him withholding money from a wheelchair bound septuagenarian?
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@ David
@Bush Tea….Why don’t you heap the same opprobrium on people who should know better?
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Bushie argues with (and cusses) intelligent people who are able to get the point….
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@DIW, the simple explanation is that the charge of the Faculty of Law is to impart the academic and theoretical aspects of law to those who qualify for admission.So we do not produce lawyers as such, rather we provide the basis that one may use for a career in business, sports management or even legal draftsmanship. Of course, the LLB also provides the basis for professional law practice, although it does ny itself not qualify the holder for admission to the regional Bars. This is a separate course of study and it is at Law School that the individual acquires or should acquire the necessary professional training to practice law.
You should understand, therefore, my resentment at Bushie’s constant carping that we are somehow to blame for the unethical practitioner. The LLB from Cave Hill may be one condition precedent, but it is no more a sine qua non of the qualification of a lawyer to practice than a previous honours degree or 2 good CAPE qualifications’
Equally, legal ethics or the condemnation of graduates misusing clients’ funds is no more our preserve than that of any other institution in this sorry abstentionist society….
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“Drafting is a technical exercise and should be left to experts”.
I have been hearing ‘this phrase’ all week and it make my blood boil. Let me put in my two cents, even though Caribbeantradelaw has already touched on my point, but I want to be even more explicit.
“Drafting is a technical exercise and should be left to experts”.
There is an element of elitism and snobbery in that sentence. I may be wrong, but it strikes as if there is also an appeal to working in secrecy; this secrecy that has made a mockery our processes, governance and law. I will go further and state that our “so called” experts are not “founding fathers” and what will emerge may be a legal Frankenstein, a cut and paste of several bits of constitutions from here and there. A teenager with access to the internet and Google may produce a similar, if not an identical document.
It is somewhat amusing how we brag of our literacy rate, and then in a next sentence we indicate that John can read, but he does not understand anything; let us shut him out. One has to look at the lambasting of Naked Departure and even here on BU to see that Barbadians delight in secrecy. Some are so smart or things are so complicated that they have to work on it in secrecy and then presented to our countrymen.
The average Barbadian has to stop this nonsense dead in its track and try to be involved in every facet of the society that has an impact on them. Lawyers and politicians are treating them like idiots. Acting as if they went up the mountains (and not just a lowly hill) and like Moses they descend with tablets in their hands.
AS CTL has mentioned, let us educate our children so that they can have full participation in the process. I will admit that those who are charged with drafting this document will need an environment within which they can be productive and work towards it completion, but I cannot accept going up the mountain and toiling in secrecy.
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Point of clarification: *lambasting of ND and even here on BU… Two ideas in one– ND is criticized for printing names, and a few on BU areadvocating never going to the press.
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Surely you have misrepresented on this issue.
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@ Jeff
“…..the condemnation of graduates misusing clients’ funds is no more our preserve than that of any other institution in this sorry abstentionist society….”
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If you are prepared to take such a stand, then you are in no position to condemn ANYONE for the present mess in which we find ourselves….
If you – who understand the conundrums of the law better than almost ANYONE else in the whole region, can wash your hands like pilot…..
…no wonder that Caswell, who don’t even have the damn LLB, is unwilling to BUP…and serve -despite his OBVIOUS talents….
Our asses are doomed…!
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Of tangential note is Justice Adrian Saunders admonition to Barbados and others that the judiciary is broken:
http://www.iwnsvg.com/2016/03/03/criminal-justice-system-in-most-caricom-countries-is-broken-judge/
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@ The Gazer, Have you yourself ever tried drafting anything? And I do not at all intend here to be supercilious in any way. When one speaks of drafting legislation, it is trying to put the instructions of the policymakers, whether the citizens or the Cabinet, into English Language. Not any old form but one that expresses as clearly as possible the precise policy so that it might not be subject to too many interpretations.
For example in your contribution above you equated literacy with the ability to read:
It is somewhat amusing how we brag of our literacy rate, and then in a next sentence we indicate that John can read, but he does not understand anything; let us shut him out…”
But is that the interpretation of literacy that most persons have? And what if it is argued by someone that literacy in your piece means both the ability to read and write? But write what? A column? A letter? Drafting legislation is a highly specialized skill that is usually taught at the graduate level.
Incidentally, do you hold the same opinion about pediatric neurosurgery? Or Economics?
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I will never discount the value of an education. But the internet and computer has placed vast amount of resources well within the grasp of the average citizen.
In the same way that we have moved from a world of witch doctors and natives, we are moving from a world of experts and ordinary citizens. The internet has decreased the knowledge difference between an expert and the ordinary citizen.
Whilst I would not go to John Doe for a surgical procedure (some has) , I know that John Doe now has access to a great deal of information pertaining to different types of medical procedures or medicine in general and can now ‘challenge’ his physician. In fact, if John Doe does not perform this search, then he is being foolish.
Let us retreat from the dying world of experts and secrecy and move to sharing information and knowledge. The future is upon us.
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@Bushie, I did not know that I was washing my hands of anything. I simply said that it was no more our collective preserve than anyone else’s. I do not resile from that view. What of the Bar Association? The Church? The Chamber of Commerce? Organized labour?
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That is the same thing I kept explaining to Dee Word, unless there is legislation by the appropriate authorities, the above mentioned, criminalizing lawyers using client’s funds for any reason, even if it is repaid and treating lawyers as criminals for these practices of stealing money, raiding client’s accounts, stealing client’s insurance compensation money, setting up clients to lose their cases because they were bribed by the other side to do so….. instead they treat these lawyers like bosom buddies to be protected, nothing can be done about the practices…..no one else can do anything.
Displaying a lack of ethics and morals when practicing law is a conscious, individual decision, because of this brotherhood nonsense in the legal fraternity on the island, it morphed into the pack mentality, something to be broken by the authorities.
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“Let us retreat from the dying world of experts and secrecy and move to sharing information and knowledge. The future is upon us”.
I am with you 100% on this. Indeed, I dedicate my life to being a public scholar. At the same time, professional expertise also includes the ability to discriminate among the vast array of uninformed opinion masquerading as “knowledge” out there in cyberspace!
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@David, there is one saying :aw degree too! My point exactly!
http://www.giftwrappedandgorgeous.co.uk/please-do-not-confuse-your-google-search-with-my-law-degree-mug-18753
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There is nothing to compare to having the actual discipline, whether it’s legal, medical, etc. How one uses the knowledge is quite a different matter…..in saying that, the public also need to do continued research and share information tirelessly…because the tools are available.
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I will not call the names of indivuals, for when I do I have omitted the names of those that I enjoy reading their post.
As this is Jeff post, I can state that I delight in reading his contributions.
Jeff, I am going to expose my flank, but I am hoping that you go for the jugular and not for obvious flaw.
I wish to assert that Caribbean law is a dead subject. Indeed, as much lipstick as you have slapped on it, it remains a dead pig. This is why Bushie and you engage in the same repetitive combat. Bushie sees a living animal, that can be trained to deliver a higher quality of pork But alas, Cave Hill is repackaging the same old material and letting it loose on the citizens of Barbados. 🙂
I hope you smile as you give me the courtesy of a reply.
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I should have added .. ” No disrespect is intended”.
I just felt that (1) relatively small population (2) small economy and (3) our history and dependency on the British limits the amount of “life” in our judicial system. The sporadic twitch that we experience now and then should not be confused with life , but
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Smile ever present for you, Sir! 🙂
I do not understand what you mean by Caribbean law being a dead subject though. Do you mean instead the legal profession? If so, then I must remind you as I do so often Bushie that we DO NOT let it “loose on the citizens of Barbados. :-)” We merely certify them as being academically competent to pursue professional legal training…that is all!
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@ Jeff..
What of the Bar Association? The Church? The Chamber of Commerce? Organized labour?
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LOL …don’t make sport now man….
…in addition to TheGazer’s point about ‘living animal that CAN be trained’, UWI happens to be unique in the following ways…
..It happens to have YOU on board as a resource
..It is an opportunity to make future training MORE relevant
..It would be a RESPECTED, unbiased and trusted source for the data produced
..It provides a WHOLE NEW area of relevance for UWI with similar potential in other specialised areas such as engineering, management, sport etc…
The Bar association is what we have now …. Crooks monitoring themselves
The Church is a waste of everyone’s time…. as long as they have their tax free status
Organised Labour? …LOL …what the hell is that? …ya mean Caswell?
UWI or bust Jeff… 🙂
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The point Bushie has been making ad nauseam seems to lead to the need for a third party certification as it relates to improving the legal profession. We need to have the discussion.
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@ David
Can you imagine that the Albinos, (of whom we are so much in awe.. ) introduced the ISO9000 series of standards in order to control a vast range of international operations across the GLOBE…from manufacturing to service standards …and we can be hesitant about our ONLY knowledge centre establishing and monitoring professional ethical and technical standards for a profession that has gone amok…?
It is actually an opportunity for UWI (and Jeff) to internationalise their relevance by leading the way in excellence in LEGAL GOVERNANCE…..
Jeff is only playing ‘hard-to-get’ because he is worried that Bushie will want some of the lotta money he will personally make as the concept gets going…. But you should remind him that Bushie already has more money than he can get spend…. 🙂
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Bushie you are saying to Jeff that there is an opportunity for his faculty to play a non standard role as it relates to the legal profession?
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Forgive the distraction,
Now I fully understand Bushie’s position on other matters. Since he has more money than he can spend, he is worried about some PYT spending it for for him.
Wuhloss, murdah :-); Bushie cannot sleep.
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@ TheGazer
…or perhaps it is BECAUSE Bushie don’t have to worry about a PYT spending his money that he has more than he can get spend…’ 🙂 …and Bushie sleeps ‘sweet as shiite’ …every night…
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@Jeff
Isn’t there an opportunity for Cave Hill, your Faculty, the BA and government to flesh out a process to make the issuing of a Practicing Certificate more than an exchange of monies?
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Jeff
Could you comment on the below,that David posted as at least two of those cases mentioned can be linked to Bim….The Gazer suggested that the legal institutions in the Caribbean were up the proverbial creek without a paddle……..How can we turn this around?
David March 6, 2016 at 11:06 AM #
Of tangential note is Justice Adrian Saunders admonition to Barbados and others that the judiciary is broken:
http://www.iwnsvg.com/2016/03/03/criminal-justice-system-in-most-caricom-countries-is-broken-judge/
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David, While it is a creative and probably useful idea, it may be above my pay grade, since the Faculty is not autonomous. Moreover, we will need the buy-in of the profession itself, who are by nature, quite jealous of their independence. It may also have, without legislative change, serious constitutional implications… but I think it is worthy of exploration
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@ Bush Tea
On Sunday I read every post of Jeff Cumberbatch who I never seen and Caswell Franklyn who I though I knew, having gone to school with him, these two men are really gifted
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@Jeff
How is it different to what is done by the Medical Council?
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@ 12:07 PM ..”The point… seems to lead to the need for a third party certification as it relates to improving the legal profession.” How does that work, David? Bushie’s point has become the proverbial tautology..around and around we go! We all agree legal ethics is piss poor but how does “a third party certification” or as Bushie is harping , how does another certification or course at UWI fix that.
This goes directly to point @Gazer was making when he says: “It is somewhat amusing how we brag of our literacy rate, and then in a next sentence we indicate that John can read, but he does not understand anything”.
Too many people here on BU and in life do just that: They do not read to UNDERSTAND and come away with a logical conclusion of the facts; rather they read to make a grand point.
A lawyer by the time he is called to the Bar has studied ‘right and wrong’ by 3rd form; by sixth/Community College he has done all types of life scenario discussions; at UWI he does ethics courses and at Law School he does more. Learns about professional standards and obligations and all that. AND throughout all that he lives life: reads the paper and sees stories on Enron, Madoff, CLICO et al.
Yet we are demanding yet another point of contact to inculcate ETHICAL behaviors. As Jeff suggested: how much lipstick does one need to paint on a pig to make it squeal better!
So then what about the engineers who reduce the ratio of cement to sand and get away with it until one day a bypass bridge collapses; what about the social worker whose reports inaccurately confirm that they have visited the home and gets away with that until the one case when the child is killed?
Do we need a third or fourth level of certification across the board for these other unscrupulous folks too?
I hear the argument but I don’t understand how we solve it with another line of talk and blather.
Ethics will be breached based on the personality of the individual regardless of the certifications completed.. so we either have a psychological means-test that validates honesty and use that or we do the other ‘RADICAL’ concept and actually punish malfeasance sternly.
That certification will work best of all.
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@Dee Word
Come on keep up!
We have to start some where. Let the debate continue!
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There is legislation covering their operations, David. The Disciplinary Committee of the Bar already has the ethical oversight of the profession under statute. For another party to be privy to its regulation would require the intervention of Parliament. The idea is commendable however!
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Thanks Jeff, preferred the good Professor to put it out there for our friends from the legal fraternity and parliament to take note. The system is broken therefore bold interventions must be the order of things to come.
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@Aiden
We love and admire Jeff and Caswell.
Most of us operate under a cloak of anonymity and can throw punches at will. We would not like the Jeffs and Caswells of this world to do anything that would harm their careers. But punches will be thrown and whilst Jeff should pull his punches as the need arise, we will not pull ours.
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@Bush Tea at 12:32 PM …you are a very sharp fellow so I am amused by your remark that, “Can you imagine that the Albinos.. introduced the ISO9000 series of standards in order to control a vast range of international operations across the GLOBE…”
I say amused because as a citizen of a non-first world nation where these ‘awesome’ standard are created the key word of the statement I recognized was ‘CONTROL’.
Let it be clear that I agree we must absolutely have continuous improvement by updating our knowledge, improving standards and basically refreshing regularly.
However, the one truism about ISO Standards, Six Sigma, Lean Six Sigma. TQM and my old time favorite Quality Circles is that they create a bariffle of high skill level jobs for those who create and succeed in propagating them.
Not to get overly ‘third world’ here but Rodney’s concept of the West under developing the Third World resonates well each and every time another new-fangled standard which requires more expenditure on training and literature FROM the practitioners in the First World.
But that apart– LOLLL– we can agree that Jeff and his new principal should not be “… hesitant about our ONLY knowledge centre…” leading the way in improving ethical and technical standards for ALL our professionals.
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As much as some of us say that we abhor the American way of doing things it seems that its influence permeates all of our discussions in some non- tangible ways. Having said that how many of us gave a hoot about the Constitution (except academics of course) until recent history when we were inundated about the US Supreme Court rulings and its application to everyday life. I don’t know if that reflects a fundamental shift in our outlook or we are moving on from navel gazing to exploring our place in the region and the wider world and the impact of changes in a country that dwarfs us in every way imaginable.
My query is in respect of the CCJ do judges of the CCJ have to make rulings on Bajan judicial matters based on a made in Barbados constitution. What if they are faced with a similar issue from a different territory that have a constitution that do not mirror ours or are silent on the matter in question. Do the judges adopt a Thurgood Marshall response “You do what you think is right and wait for the law to catch up” or do we have Judges that tend to interpret the Constitution literally (“originalist’’ judges a la Scalia that believe the original drafters of the US Constitution were right no matter the passage of over 200 years). Wait I am wondering into scriptural beliefs here so let me ease out…….
Branford’s article infers there was nothing secretive about the “drafting’’ since it was the result of widespread consultation and it couldn’t be done in e.g Oistins Fish market (sorry Belinda Cox) and moreover the makeup of the group ensured it was beyond reproach. In the current Bajan landscape that is a red flag before a bull and the “bulls” will be charging especially on BU, the Nation may restrict its comments to anyone named “Webster”
I don’t want to put words in Branford’s mouth but his conclusion is that “there is no there there”.
Re David @11.22am Jeff @11.25 am, the best I’ve seen is a T shirt that read “Forget Google my wife knows everything”. I may get one, my wife has a sense of humour I think……..
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Good one Sarge, hope the missus not reading.
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“To my mind, there is nothing wrong with preparing a draft and then putting it out there for discussion by the public”
Bro Cas- no need to back down. I support your view. I see nothing sinister in preparing the draft and then putting it out there for discussion by the public if the intention was to do so. Was the Independence constitution put to the public for discussion before it was made law?
The exposure at this juncture smells fishy to me with Mr Gollop playing a quisling like role .It seems to be an attempt to put the opposition and their operatives on the back-foot and brand them as hypocrites should they criticise when the republican facade is officially foisted on the public.
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A fella tell another fella, “…you is a idiot..” To which he retorted, “…No, I could never be an idiot, I too STUPID to be an idiot..but if you had any more brains, you’d be a complete IDIOT…”
Fuh true!
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@David March at 1:31 PM ..re:”Come on keep up! We have to start some where. Let the debate continue!” And “Thanks Jeff, preferred the good Professor to put it out there… The system is broken therefore bold interventions must be the order of things to come.”
Let me make this bad joke…Jeff is an attorney by profession. Do you realize that you just got agreement from him to establish new entitles (well tactic approval, anyway) and do you realize that would be a guarantee of employment for at minimum three or four more of his law students (past or future). LOLLLL
Lawyers love new committee and more layers. And particularly different regulatory bodies chasing the same thing…cause that means possibly competing legislation…which means billable research/drafting time. In sum some good legal work.
Just saying , Mr Blogmaster!
Jeff has always shown us how smart he is…no different today. LOLLL.
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@Dee Word
Reading you loud and clear, hope Jeff doesn’t take umbrage at any attempt to cast aspersions on the honorable profession👀
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David March 6, 2016 at 1:36 PM #
So all roads in this country lead to Parliament……..why am I getting a giddy feeling that we going ’round and ’round the mulberry bush or sweet lime hedge….heading nowhere fast.
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Jeff Cumberbatch March 6, 2016 at 1:33 PM #
There is legislation covering their operations, David. The Disciplinary Committee of the Bar already has the ethical oversight of the profession under statute. For another party to be privy to its regulation would require the intervention of Parliament. The idea is commendable however!
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@Vincent Haynes
I clicked on the link you provided and ended with a heavy heart.
Perhaps there is a need to have a denial of ‘human rights” investigation in the Caribbean. What I read there has nothing to do with justice, but is an abuse of those who are unlucky enough to get caught up by the system.
Perhaps, it is time for us to stop playing the silly legal games bequeath on us by the Queen, and start treating our citizens like the humans they are.
It is a mockery; a farce; little kids pretending to be grown-ups. In this sphere, our education is wasted.
———————————–Done for the day—————————————————-
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@Vincent
It is why some question the degree to which the lower house is populated with lawyers. Did you say gridlock?
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“(“originalist’’ judges a la Scalia that believe the original drafters of the US Constitution were right no matter the passage of over 200 years”
Originalist though he was ; he was practical enough to recognize that it was illogical to subscribe to the view that two persons of the same sex could marry. His submissions thereto were quite profound and were favourable to the survival of the species.
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David March 6, 2016 at 2:14 PM #
David et Al……look at the The Gazers frustration……you mean to say that we old geezers on BU are impotent to change around our country….you mean not one idea amongst us to go forward with……BT did try to get the youngsters on BU to do something and failed……old saying when you want a job done do it yourself…..but how????
We have to start a pirate station with a non stop call in programme.
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@Vincent
We have had talk radio with us since Frank Pardo and Share, what is your point? Do you want a revolution or try to morose what we have.
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@ De Word
Did you not promise to salvage your integrity and continue to project the aura of some intelligence… by not posting any more on this subject…?
Why these intellectual suicidal tendencies on your part… are you on a new water diet or something…?
Boss, take a leaf from Hants’ book and drink some rum or some spirit do!!
You could NEVER see how anything could work…. what the hell do you do in life…? are you a professional pessimist?
Think for a moment man…. Never mind Jeff stone-walling about ‘above his pay-grade’ …and needing ‘buy in from the profession’ …
Lotta shiite… Jeff is probably refining and patenting the idea as we type…
Wuh David(BU) could perform the role that Bushie outlined – except he would NOT have the clout of Jeff /UWI and he would not have the confidence of “knowing that he knows” when it comes to the Law… IT DOES NOT NEED ANY BUY IN from lawyers…
The mere FACT of having official research being conducted by a RESPECTED body like Jeff /UWI …in FACTUAL performance by PRACTICING lawyers in the jurisdiction – with results being summarised into annual performance reports…
…and these reports being available to prospective clients, government authorities, the press and most critically the blogs… any lawyer worth his salt will take a BRAND NEW approach to how (s)he does business….. or go broke…
Shiite man …can you imagine an annual analysis of “client funds held” versus “actual balances on account at the bank” being generated as a matter of course… by no less a source than UWI?
…and what additional staff – CURRENT students will do the damn research…
Can you imaging the IMPACT on the new students currently preparing themselves to rob our children?
What EXACTLY is your problem? …is this stuff TOO SIMPLE and straightforward for you to follow…? or are you now getting your water as it enters the lake….?
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Balance……Scalia himself was questionable, just a couple months ago one lawmaker was caught attributing and adding nonsense to the constitution that the drafters never wrote 200 years ago, he had to remove it, makes us wonder over the last 200 years, how much of it was edited and reedited to suit the nonsense rolling around in the heads of lawmakers from generation to generation.
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@Bush Tea
The first decree of the soon to be established BTPAC is that any financial institution audited by the regulator/BRA and found to have paid interest on an account with clients monies shall pay a fine of $100,000 forthwith.
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@ The Gazer
All governance systems need much improvement, these two men Jeff and Caswell seems to be helping by their postings on BU, the ideas are general, as Bush Tea said we can not even get MTW to enforce ant-flooding law in Barbados, if you are unlucky like me and seeking justice for a situation, please don’t be as naïve as me and ask Certain people for help.
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David March 6, 2016 at 2:34 PM #
Should have expanded and indicated the purpose was to educate the population as to what is realy happening in there country and open it to joe public to vent his frustrations with the system and call names….hence the pirate nature…..possibly A BU clone for the airwaves.
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Bush Tea March 6, 2016 at 3:05 PM #
Skippah…..why yuh doan leff DIW ‘lone,he making real sense.
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@Balance
Originalist though he was ; he was practical enough to recognize that it was illogical to subscribe to the view that two persons of the same sex could marry. His submissions thereto were quite profound and were favourable to the survival of the species
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Yuh know we will never agree yuh think the survival of the species depended on a vote by the US Supreme Court? What happened to the European countries that have same sex partnerships? What happened to Barbados that have same sex partnerships since Adam was the proverbial lad? These partnerships were not codified by law but you know that they existed and perhaps one of your friends or a family member was a part of one of these unions.
Scalia also famously said “‘you either believe in democracy or you don’t” this was after he voted to stop the Florida recount that ensured GW Bush would be elected President of the US, wasn’t stopping that recount a vote against democracy?
Scalia wanted to have his cake and eat it.
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@Bush Tea
You could NEVER see how anything could work…. what the hell do you do in life…? are you a professional pessimist?
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I was waiting for DIW to respond but he must be consulting Roget to formulate his response , but that is too delicious to pass up. Bushie calling someone a pessimist? Hold muh, muh belly, wuhloss, wuhloss if I was diabetic my sugar count would be off the charts, too sweet, too sweet like Xmas ham that you haven’t seen for twelve months or like ok this is a family blog…..
Bushie calling someone a pessimist, the irony, the horror, the humanity, If I don’t laugh the rest of the year it’s because I have reached my quota 😀
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@Vincent and #Sargeant, I was distracted and then as you said I was working hard to figure out if I wanted to tussle with Bushie again. He rants in one direction when he does not want to be serious and its a drag to run his path at times. If I try to be factual and precise he gets pithy and makes some irrational reply. If I get flippant he tacks back and tries to be serious.
@Bushie you are correct that research on the performance of lawyers would be a good thing. Currently the working folks who are charged to do this have great difficulty getting credible info sometimes even in getting the attorneys to respond to their valid legal requests.
Yet in your wisdom you have determined that the law students will have greater persuasive or other power to get this data.
You have wrapped your recommendation with well framed processes and obviously you can see where the grant funds will come from and exactly how this will be structured along with the students curriculum and all that sort of thing.
Sounds like an awesome Bushie plan to me. Full of excellent theory very short on practical implementation details.
No problem whatever with your sharp brain. The problem is moving from design to product development to market penetration. But heh I am a naysayer…you will get in done.
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@DIW
He rants in one direction when he does not want to be serious and its a drag to run his path at times. If I try to be factual and precise he gets pithy and makes some irrational reply. If I get flippant he tacks back and tries to be serious.
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I know the feeling tussling with Bushy is an exercise in futility, its like nailing jello to a wall you sure he aint a politician?.
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LOL @ the Canadian water drinkers…
No point in trying to psycho-analyse Bushie …. wunna fellows never met anyone like the bushman before – and likely never will again – so don’t dig nothing… Jesus once asked of the disciples “who do men say that I am…?”
People have ALWAYS been confused by BBE’s boys…
@ Sargeant, so what is so complex about Bushie classifying DIW as a professional pessimist? …and what has any perceived pessimism on Bushie’s part got to do with such a classification? Are you suggesting that a short man can never classify another fellow as short….?
steupsss … all that fresh water in Canada …and look what wunna drinking….
@ DIW
If you don’t follow a concept, why not just ASK questions before PRESUMING and ASSUMING …and then coming to stupid conclusions.
The Student research proposal is a ridiculously SIMPLISTIC proposal. What is all this nonsense about “grant funding” and curriculum concerns…?
When last were you in a university boss….? Students ROUTINELY do research projects. Right now they research old shiite cases and spend hours delving into useless old nonsense….
All a lecturer would do is change the focus of some of these research projects into collecting PUBLIC information from the Registry, lawyers themselves, clients, Insurance Companies etc….on CURRENT, relevant legal practise in Barbados.
Any lawyer who refuses to provide the requested PUBLIC information would simply be listed in the report as not providing requested information….. and much like athletes who refuse to be available for drug tests…. three strikes and you are listed as ‘non-compliant’….
Potential clients then have access to a resource document/database/performance rating which they can use to determine who to hire, who to avoid, and who has been getting good reviews…
Do you have ANY idea of how powerful customer ratings are on online sales sites? Suppliers BEG customers not to ‘down-rate’ them …and will bend over backwards to provide nothing less than EXCELLENT service…in order to get good reviews….
Skippa, your head would probably spin at any of Bushie’s ‘awesome plans’….and there are many… But things like this, BUP, and the water meter proposal are VERY simple, off-the-cuff, OBVIOUS ideas to solve basic problems presented.
..don’t be awed…. and avoid that lake water at all cost…
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Perhaps Sarge one day we will agree but not this time for opinions proffered on why the Justices voted one way or the other would always be speculative since we were not in the minds of the Justices. I suppose we can cast aspersions on the voting pattern for Obamacare as well.
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Sometimes I wonder about Dee Word’s claims of living in Canada, how could he not know that university students do ALL the major research required for the country, including writing proposals for business people….or is he just hoping it’s not so because he does not think it should be so, what a mentality. I needed some business information and was sent directly to one of the universties to have the students do the research.
The Bushman…on watching your writing for the last few months, you are quite the analyst.
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In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man.
If you want anything done, ask a woman.
Unfortunately, politics is all about shiite…
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