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How CARICOM Members Rank On The FP Failed States Index 2008

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CARICOM Members

Rank

Score

Colour
Index

Antigua and Barbuda

126

62.8

Orange

The Bahamas *

130

60.9

Orange

Barbados

135

57.2

Green

Belize

111

69.5

Orange

Dominica

 – – –

Grenada

119

67.9

Orange

Guyana

104

73

Orange

Haiti

12

101.8

Red

Montserrat

–

–

–

St. Kitts and Nevis

–

–

–

Saint Lucia

–

–

–

St. Vincent and the Grenadines

–

–

–

Suriname

103

73.2

Orange

Jamaica

117

68.9

Orange

Trinidad and Tobago

123

66.7

Orange
CARICOM Associates

Anguilla

–

–

–

Bermuda

–

–

–

British Virgin Islands

–

–

–
Turks and Caicos Islands

–

–

–

Cayman Islands

–

–

–
* The Bahamas is a member of the Community but not the Common Market.

Orange – (60-80.9) Red – (90-120) Green – (30-59.9)

The Foreign Policy (FP) group which is based in Washington annually prepares a failed states index in collaboration with The Fund for Peace. We find the analysis interesting in the context of recent discussion on BU questioning the value of Barbados continuing its commitment to the CSME project. The discussion has been heightened in recent days by negative comments issued by former Prime Minister Erskine Sandiford.

The FP website does not list rankings for four Caricom members (Montserrat, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & Grenadines)  and the associates but BU suggests the colour index for the countries omitted would be orange with a rating in the 60-80.9 range. BU  has tried to find out if the analysis was done for those countries with no success to date. If we receive the rankings for the countries omitted BU will update the table. Of note is the ranking for Barbados which is the only Caricom member with a colour index of green.

The methodology used to feed the FP analysis can be viewed here.

The big question to be answered is whether the favourable rating for Barbados would be adversely affected in a Caricom project?

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64 responses to “How CARICOM Members Rank On The FP Failed States Index 2008”

  1. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    Yuh David that the silliness we witness around the region and that was pointed at Barbados for our Governments position on immigration, will once again raise it’s silly head to issue prophetic utterance that our time will come when we are in need and on the receiving end of fail state status , or we will be visited by natural disasters, wrecking our economy in the process etc.. .
    The fail state status attributed to Guyana the FP group, as evidential as it is, only corroborates what I have been saying for nearly a decade.

  2. Avatar
    Anonymous

    This is a scary FS index David. Very scary FOR BARBADOS!

    What are we thinking are we looking at our own demise VOLUNTARILY!

    Something is wrong. Fellow Bloggers please explain since I am at a loss!!

  3. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    In 1965 proposal by the Premiers of Barbados and British Guiana (both countries had not yet become independent), to form a free trade pact which would have provided for freedom of movement, The Barbados advocate on the 12th of July 1965 reported that Dr. Cheddi Jagan a leader of the Opposition in British Guiana, argued against the pact, he was quoted as saying BRITISH GUIANA WOULD BECOME THE DUMPING GROUnD FOR THE UNEMPLOYED,RESTLESS, AND POVERTY-STRICKEN in Barbados”.

    It amazes me that those who own the copyright on what defines racist comments missed this one.

    BTW David, George Braithwaite candidate for a PHD came out of hiding briefly to cuss me on Norman Girvan’s website, where I used the FP groups finding to question integration/freedom of movement at this time. He was none please. lol!

    The link below starts with two comments made by me, follow by GCB cussing me in third comment.

    http://www.normangirvan.info/a-caricom-executive-mechanism-pj-patterson/#comment-4572

  4. y. paris Avatar
    y. paris

    Caricom needs to be disbanded, the sooner the better. Why should sound stable islands be linked with failed states? The only union in the region which appears to be working is OECS. In these challenging economic times, every state has to protect its sovreignity and provide for their own natives first.

  5. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    Folks this is what awaits you when you sign up to be a citizen of a Caricom state in which person like Norman Girvan, will have a leading say in it’s running. Expect to be censored, moderated, and punish if you say things that are not to their liking.

    On Norman’s blog I wrote the following.

    I think that Professor Richard Allsopp’s passing should also have been mentioned on this blog. He was a well known son of Guyana and the Caribbean. He gave us the Caribbean dictionary. They were no less that 6 tributes posted on UWI website for Professor Allsopp, as compare to 1 for Kathleen Drayton whom you mention. Remarkable lady. I had the pleasure of a telephone conversation with her about Barbados Association of Retired persons as I sought to find out what if any relationship existed between the Barbados entity and the one in the US. Not to mention Professor Richard Allsopp on this blog is to encourage speculation, of why he was omitted.

    What is there now masquarading as my thoughts on the subject:

    http://www.normangirvan.info/a-caricom-executive-mechanism-pj-patterson/#comment-4896

  6. lholder Avatar
    lholder

    Adrian,
    You must engage Professor Norman Girvan about his role with regard to the disastrous economic policies pursued by the Michael Manley government in Jamaica in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. If I am not mistaken, he was one of the proponents of the argument that the government should control the commanding heights of the economy. The government followed that advice, and Jamaica is in tatters now. Barbados did not, and we have been successful. Those fellows have no moral authority to tell Barbados how it should conduct its affairs.

  7. David Avatar
    David

    Adrian have you ever wondered why these academics and others with a different view are afraid to enter BU to discuss the issues? Yes we agree our comments can get robust but the core of the arguments can be represented freely.

  8. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    @Lindsay:

    All in good time. The more I visit Norman’s website the more it becomes apparent that it is an online gathering for Caribbean socialist, and Castro sympathizers. I was guided to this realization when I sought to understand Commissiong prominence there, why Kathleen Drayton was mention on their blog by citing a tribute to her on UWI website while ignoring up to six on the same site for Richard Allsopp. Also their strong support of Zepeda the ousted President of the Honduras (I am not supporting the coup) and several other person, ideas, and situation which engage their attention that when contrast to the regional things that they omit to speak on runs along the lines of what in the interest of socialism and the socialist and what is not.

  9. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    @David;
    Adrian have you ever wondered why these academics and others with a different view are afraid to enter BU to discuss the issues? Yes we agree our comments can get robust but the core of the arguments can be represented freely.
    ————————————————
    I thought it to be that they are condescending in nature and think it unnaturual to converse with plebes such as I. We speak a different language you know. lol! I would never believe it to be an inability to defend their position against our questions, or that our submissions lay waste to their convictions. No way! lol!

  10. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    Can anyone recall that Barbados was invited to join the OECS but Owen Arthur’s regime turned down the offer?

  11. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    DAVID

    What is this “thumb up, thumb down” business you are adding to the comments?

  12. David Avatar
    David

    CCC

    It’s a new WordPress feature.

    Click on thumbs up if you like the comment and thumbs down if you think its crap!

    At the bottom of the blog you can also click on the star which you think fits.

  13. Carson C. Cadogan Avatar
    Carson C. Cadogan

    So why do you think that it is necessary to include this?

    People’s comments and opinions are their own they do not have to wait for someone else to validate them.

    When you see me make comments , if people agree with them fine, if they do not it does not change my opinion one bit.

    It is not everything WordPress put there that you have to use.

  14. Livinginbarbados Avatar
    Livinginbarbados

    @AH
    “George Braithwaite candidate for a PHD came out of hiding briefly to cuss me on Norman Girvan’s website, where I used the FP groups finding to question integration/freedom of movement at this time.” [I’ve read the comments and I guess my understanding of cussing must be different. Webster’s definition is ‘ to use profanely insolent language against’. Sorry, don’t see the cursing. However, if George has set a line in the sand for ‘cussing’ I look forward to your pulling back those who seem to clearly step way past it on a blog not far from here. He just does not agree. Is it good to try to diminish your opponent by misrepresentation of what he does?]

  15. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    The FP analysis works on a very narrow set of measures and certain countries will feature badly on that dimension. One really needs to look at a wider set of indicators to make sense of what a country is all about. Just think about what you know about the USA and see where it ranks (low) on the failed state index. The index is also a snapshop and not dynamic (eg countries coming out of war would still rank badly now, even though they may be heading toward greater stability). Barbados may still rank highly relative to most of the region.

  16. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    BTW, Sir Erskine’s views on taxation are somewhat naive in the modern world. The US, for example, taxes on a global basis (and because of that wants to pare away at tax sheltering offered by countries like Barbados). Many countries tax without offering the tax payer representation (ie a vote). There is even one prominent Barbadian businessman who argued recently that representation should have nothing to do with things such as whether a person makes a tax contribution, but based solely on place of birth. He has since pulled away from his proposals.

  17. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    David did i read correctly? Is caricom or some other entity in caribbean, being compare to the US with regards to collecting taxes? David do you know why an American citizen not domicle State-side would continue to pay taxes to the US government? I have some ideas but I am having some difficulty applying them to anything resembling a federal authority located in the Caribbean. Can you help me?

    I am willing to bet that Thompy has a friend working at the FP group and that this explains the difference in Barbados ranking as compared to the other caribbean countries using the very same set of narrow measures. Maybe the FP group looks favourably on countries that promise to institute a manage migration policy, or they are racist, xenophobic, and harbours intimations of ethinic cleansing, and feel a kindred spirit with the Government of Barbados. Hell the measurements are narrow, so widen then by dropping the passing score to 40%, that way everyone becomes a winner and Grenada can truly say that the results were fair and balance.

  18. David Avatar
    David

    @Adrian

    Have a look at this FP link, this is a highly decorated group. Hope LIB can breakout his critique regarding how the instrument/measurements used could be expanded to lend more credibility to the result.

  19. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @AH
    If you’re referring to Sir Erskine’s recent comments, I think he has a few things mixed up.

    On your own observations, it’s not just nationals in any jurisdiction who pay national taxes, it’s also those transacting in the national space (VAT is one good example of that). Hence my comment about plenty of taxation without representation. For nationals earning abroad, they may still be prone to national taxation to some degree (varies with country), and the US is one country that tries to make sure they get their taxes due with a global reach. The US and most developed countries have the resources to pursue beyond borders, but their citizens also have resources to fight that reach.

  20. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    My point is simply that the ‘failed state’ index is measuring how prone a state is to civil and international conflict. Hence the concentration of subsaharan African countries, Middle Eastern and central and eastern European countries near the critical/in danger end, and North American, west and northern European countries and Australasia near the stable end. The index also has a number of components that are likely to be serially correlated, ie move together, so the will tend to swing countries further toward one end or the other.

    That conflict potential is a negative for sure. But there are other negatives and positives that weigh in the balance. Look at ‘risky’ places like Russia and Pakistan to get a sense of what that means: dicey internal conditions but has that stopped major capital inflows and economic growth? Look at Egypt: hugely attactive investment space, tourism attraction, international event host, etc.

    For the Caribbean area, the rankings are really very tight, notwithstanding your traffic lights–which you;ve massage a bit by cutting off the top of the tree (those countries scoring UNDER 30…Why?). If I were your Prof. I’d tell you go back and redo the colouring (so CAVEAT EMPTOR). I’m sure that Hubert Ingraham would contest that The Bahamas stands behind Barbados on conflict potential. The real outlier is Haiti.

    So, I would not be jumping for anything about the index itself. I’m not really sure what you think/thought it demonstrates/d.

    The question you pose needs redefining (you start with a notion of CSME and end with a notion of Caricom—more marks lost, there). Assuming you really mean “CSME” project, then the answer is based on why you think that would change the scores for the worse for Barbados. Another perspective (and economists have that annoying habit) is to think whether CSME would improve ‘conflict potential’ ratings for some countries by improving their economic lot.

  21. David Avatar
    David

    @LIB

    To be quite honest BU is not following you. Even if The Bahamas was on green with Barbados the point of using countries all members of Caricom or associates for comparative purposes stands. Bahamas position on CSME and lacklustre participation in Caricom forces the point being made. Our article mentions the topical debate currently raging about CSME matters but BU chose to phrase our question in a Caricom context.

    Which countries under 30 in the Caricom group we have not listed?

  22. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    “Which countries under 30 in the Caricom group we have not listed?” Take another look at the FULL DATA for index. It’s not what you listed but what you imply in the ‘best’ (green). Your ‘grades’ are showing at best the best of the rest, and you make no mention of that. There are a lot of countries ranked with scores less than 30 and your implication (and not everyone is bothered to look beyond what you write) is that Barbados is sitting in some top group–which of course is far from the truth. At best they may be in the 2nd division. If you take that analysis to a logical conclusion, you could do your traffic lights starting at 60. Get the picture?

  23. David Avatar
    David

    Part of the problem to implementing CSME is the drag many perceive Guyana will have on the project given its impoverished state. To credit Ambassador Dennis Kelman, Caricom has to find ways to assist Guyana so that economic opportunities are increased to stop the outward flow of Guyanese (some may say the core issue for Guyana is racial conflict which is affecting the economic circumstance).

    For example, the below extract shows how The Bahamas is trying to fashion a strategy to assist Haiti which is an attempt to curb the problem of Haitian refugees affecting The Bahamas.

    Prime Minister the Rt. Hon. Hubert Ingraham bids Haitian President René Préval goodbye before leaving the reception held for delegates attending the 50th Anniversary of the Creation of the Inter-American Development Bank, July 16.

    Nassau, Bahamas – The Bahamas is to import agricultural products directly from Haiti, Prime Minister the Rt Hon Hubert A Ingraham confirmed.

    He said The Bahamas wants to grow more of its own food but it cannot produce an adequate amount for domestic consumption and the hotel sector.

    ”It will benefit The Bahamas if crops are imported from Haiti because fewer Haitians would leave home in search of jobs if they had employment opportunities in Haiti,” he said in an interview with BIS and ZNS following the IDB Forum in Haiti last weekend.

    Full Article

  24. David Avatar
    David

    @LIB

    Did we not provide the relevant links for all to explore?

    As previously stated we located Barbados in a Caricom/Associates peer group for obvious reasons. What relevance would it be to compare to non-Caricom/Associates countries. Educate us please!

  25. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    “Did we not provide the relevant links for all to explore?” [You did, indeed, and your professor would dock marks for the manner in which you biased your commentary, without reference to a key aspect for how you used the raw data. Take a snap shot of any table. Slice off the top group, then analyse the rest.What do you have? To splice topics. If Windies go to play in a lower international group for cricket, we can do a similar exercise and get Windies back up there amongst the ‘best’.

    When you ask those weighty questions about the kind of country/people you want you also have to consider the kind of country/people you are. How you want to be seen by others is very important in that assessment.

  26. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    ‘Part of the problem to implementing CSME is the drag many perceive Guyana will have on the project given its impoverished state.” [Part of the selling of any policy is to convince the haves that something is needed for the have nots. The countries change but the principle remains the same: rich Germany, poorer UK, or Spain/Portugal, or Ireland; richer west Germany, poorer east Germany; back in USSR days, richer Baltic countries being drained to supply poorer Russia, etc. If I read history correctly, even poorer Barbados, richer Panama, Bahamas, Guyana. Now, time has redistributed the benefits. Visions move from the now to the then. Many politicians do not have vision, but are merely expedient. If you don’t believe then you wont follow. You can go back to your raging currents metaphor and explore it from there.

  27. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    Hubert Ingraham acknowledges two sides of a problem: Bahamian inability to grow enough food (and that is not a matter of acreage, but more of how the archepelago poses transport difficulties [most people live on one little rock, while most arable land is elsewhere], and too few people. Remember they are not just feeding their own 300,000, but millions of tourists. Haiti has land, people and ability. This can be a win-win, if it helps stem flows of Haitians to The Bahamas. What if Haitians decide to not go also to USA and Canada? Still win-win?

  28. Adrian Hinds Avatar
    Adrian Hinds

    possible solution LIB, any? What are we trying to resolve anyway? anything?

    Should the approach to CSME focus more on resolving the racial devide in Guyana?

    Do you agree that to this can begin the process of growing it’s economy?

  29. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @AH
    “Should the approach to CSME focus more on resolving the racial devide in Guyana?”[If the racial divide is not an ‘economic’ based issue, then how and why would we expect CSME to resolve it. If the divide in Guyana is socially or politically based, changing the economic situation in the region may not improve those conditions for a particular nation. If it is socially or politically based then its solution rests squarely on the willingness of the divided to move socially (integrate?) and/or politically (accommodate/share power).

    CSME may of course strengthen/weaken existing economic positions and worsen any divide that already exists. With no great leap, it is easy to see that is also a latent problem for any/all of the region’s members.

  30. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    Though discussed on another thread, the fate of small island economies and IMF programs will soon have more experiences to compare (even if they are not all alike) with a slew of IMF arrangements just agreed or pending :

    St. Lucia–exogenous shocks facility (economic crisis)
    Grenada–PRSP (poverty reduction)
    St. Kitts –emergency due to natural disaster
    St. Vincent and the Grenadines–exogenous shocks facility (economic crisis)
    Belize –emergency due to natural disaster (floods)
    Dominica–exogenous shocks facility

    See, http://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/facts/esf.htm for details of ESF.

    Jamaica (yesterday’s announcement–stand by arrangement)

    Soon to come–Antigua (under preliminary negotiation)

  31. David Avatar
    David

    @LIB

    Thanks!

    So 8 out of 15 Caricom member (including Antigua) are drawing down IMF arrangments.

    Another question given your economist status hence questions of this nature although you have indicated earlier BU should do the research. What is the current state of Barbados foeign reserves and what are you hearing from your economist friends about next steps for Barbados. Hope the question is well enough defined :-).

    Again the table was meant to list countries in the Caricom region only given the context of which economies will be magnet and which will need support.

  32. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    Not all of the arrangements are yet finalised, but should be within weeks/months. For example, I think St Kitts will wait till they have their elections. Remember that drawing down money happens from the start but action to fix economic problems will lag and may drag and if performance is poor then future drawings may be delayed or even never made if the program falls over.

    I do not have any extra insight into Barbados’ reserves other than what is published by the central bank, and the latest data are on their website (see http://www.centralbank.org.bb/WEBCBB.nsf/(hpPublications)/C5C57CFAF63614B9042575F40058E026/$FILE/EFS_JUN_2009.pdf). Just remember when you look at the data that the official reserves are a class of foreign assets held by the central bank and government. But the country has access to more foreign assets, held by its commercial banks. The political parties have confused and argued at cross purposes by focusing on different measures.

    Governor Williams is due to give her next assessment on July 28 (if I recall correctly). Also, Barbados is about due for its annual consultation with the IMF. The Governor may say something on its timing.

    I know what the table was meant to convey but in a world of many motives, it is (I think) good to make the context absolutely clear, rather than leave it to the reader to sift that. A cynic is given too much ammunition by the kind of omission you made (Barbados as the head of a group that may be seen as ‘best of the rest’ is a different looking animal that if it were in its true international placing; you could have made it clearer where the Caribbean stands in the world). But I am not losing sleep over it now. I may launch an attack later because it goes to how Barbados and Barbadians like to portray their status: it’s a good sell.

  33. David Avatar
    David

    A cynic is given too much ammunition by the kind of omission you made (Barbados as the head of a group that may be seen as ‘best of the rest’ is a different looking animal that if it were in its true international placing; you could have made it clearer where the Caribbean stands in the world). But I am not losing sleep over it now. I may launch an attack later because it goes to how Barbados and Barbadians like to portray their status: it’s a good sell.

    The title of this blog is ‘How CARICOM Members Rank On The FP Failed States Index 2008’ need we say more?

    On your quote above the numbers of Caricom Nationals visiting Barbados compared to other Caricom countries support the fact that if Barbadians portray our status as a good sell, others seem to thinkl it is a good by.

  34. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    ‘The title of this blog is ‘How CARICOM Members Rank On The FP Failed States Index 2008′ need we say more?’ [Yes, because you did not place them in the context of the WHOLE index…

    ‘On your quote above the numbers of Caricom Nationals visiting Barbados compared to other Caricom countries support the fact that if Barbadians portray our status as a good sell, others seem to thinkl it is a good by.'[I never read too much into the arrivals/visitors data (it’s really the spend that’s critical), because Barbados is a major hub and a transit point for cruises. So, in that sense it could be a quick ‘good bye’.]

  35. David Avatar
    David

    Who is talking about spend only?

    What about the aplication for work permits and student visas?

    To use your argument if you are going to challenge long held views come with empiracal data.

  36. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    “Who is talking about spend only?’ [You perhaps misunderstand. In terms of what one can determine about persons coming to the island, what they spend here is more important than the physical number.]

    “What about the aplication for work permits and student visas?” [What about them, compared to over 1 million tourist arrivals? Dare I say, if we had some data from the wonderful Immigration Department, we could perhaps have a half decent discussion?]

  37. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    Whenever ya’all finish wid wanna calculations and projections -it will become increasingly clear that there is NO WAY OUT!
    …it is all downhill from here.

    Most can now see that there is no salvation in CSME (indeed we will sink even faster that way…)

    Tourism is based on wealthy foreigners willing to pay for paradise…. that market is now characterized by collapse and fear…

    Foreign investments are similarly tainted….

    ….it is now all down to adjusting our lifestyles to live within our means…

    The extent to which we can do this successfully depends on the kind of infrastructural investments that we have undertaken nationally…

    Sustainable investments in Agriculture, Manufacturing, Energy, Education, Water management, and Security comes to mind as key factors in designing a satisfactory future.

    Obviously, these represent the core of the neglected areas of national development over the last 20 years.

    Even if we had the foresight to prepare for this eventuality, I suggest that it will NOT be possible to sit in the middle of a sea of misery- and enjoy such comforts in any case; and that we would quickly have been overcome with hoards of the desperate. (Picture LIB multiplied thousands of times LOL)…..

    When ya’all finally come to this realization and wish to discuss why this is the case -and what the REAL program is all about…. just holla’ for the Bush man…

  38. David Avatar
    David

    We have become so intelligent of late. Our willingness to define everything in economic terms at the expense of social factors/culture/norms/mores/spirit/soul is sad.

  39. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    “Our willingness to define everything in economic terms at the expense of social factors/culture/norms/mores/spirit/soul is sad.” [You should know that I would jump on ‘define everything in economic terms’. I dont know. I may measure some things in those terms but they do not define my values. However, if you want to somehow blend numbers and values look at how Bhutan measures gross domestic happiness.]

  40. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @Bush Tea
    “….it is now all down to adjusting our lifestyles to live within our means…” [You too, or your ‘government’ will have to do some measuring to find out what those means are, and if they can do what you want in terms of sustainable investments. Not being facetious, do you have a ball park figure of the means available and the investment needs?

    You should not fear that more LIBs will come here. Many foreigners (whether connected to the region or not) are already scared off by the cost of living; even if they are told they have to come here they cannot bear that burden for too long.

  41. Avatar
    Anonymous

    So LIB leave Barbados then nah man!

  42. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @ Anonymous // July 23, 2009 at 10:08 am
    I can deal with the cost of living, because I avoid certain spending here, do some elsewhere if needed, and live well within my meagre means (and I have to earn what I can spend).

    I’m not a great one for solving my problems by covering my eyes, putting my head in the sand, or covering my ears to drown out the noise, because then I cannot see or hear when someone is really guiding me to the best way out.

    If you like or understand sporting metaphors, you cannot win any game by just playing defence. The best you do is tie and at worst lose. To win, you must overcome the challenges.

  43. Sargeant Avatar
    Sargeant

    • So LIB leave Barbados then nah man!
    ************************************
    LIB does not need me to come to his defense but why not engage him about his ideas if they conflict with yours? I don’t agree with everything he writes but one of the worst things that one can do is surround themselves with people who will only tell them what they like or what they want to hear.

    So engage, debate and may the best man/woman win

  44. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @Sargeant
    I encountered a very angry person, who travels with the moniker ‘Negroman’. I offered him the words of Disiderata and hopes that it quells some of his rage.

    Without blaspheming, Heaven help us if we only hear or listen to the words we like. Wasn’t that how original sin started? Biblical experts forgive me if I had misinterpreted the passages.

  45. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    I should add that I do not see a contest with winners and losers. Like those whose religious or other beliefs on another thread question views that many will hold, there is an attempt to convince others that things are not as they see or wish to see them. Maybe that is not comfortable. But, in the end maybe it’s better to live with the world in which you believe than hold onto some notions that you feel you cannot share.

  46. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    One reason given to me by some who you wish to see participate in these discussion for their non participation is the sort of insults that some feel they have a right or need to throw around. Most people I know don’t thrive on such fodder. I myself often think enough of this. It’s not my living.

    I think that is a pity because notwithstanding the limitations, this is a medium for exchange that can work well.

    Instead, what I think is happening is that rather than ‘conversing’ there is more singing to the choir, so little really can get resolved. Imagine the situation where employers and employees, or WIPA/WICB make their arguments in separate rooms then each walk out and go home saying “we done”.

  47. Bush Tea Avatar
    Bush Tea

    @LIB
    I have no “fear that more ‘LIB’s will come here”…. In fact Bush Tea has little fear of anything…. I do not need to, since I understand what is happening…

    I have to agree with you that Barbados has become (and will become much more) unattractive to the peoples who have traditionally been attracted here.

    We were successful in tourism because of the peculiar character of our people (…and by this I am not necessarily speaking of any positive characteristics.. For example our willingness to turn the other cheek and let others walk all over us… our meek and subservient attitudes etc)

    As others are attracted because of the successes that we achieved, that national character will also change – removing the very thing that worked for us…

    You are a good example of this LIB.

    It is obvious that you don’t know one fart… yet you pontificate on every topic under the sun…. and seem to really expect to be taken seriously…..you think you is Bush Tea or wuh?

    …you really think that we care how many places you lived before (..and probably got kicked out of) or how many different jobs you had (ditto..)?

    A few more hundred like you, and what tourist would want to come here and drive around alone at night in a mini moke chatting with the ‘locals’ with little fear of being ‘choked and robbed’?

    …The result -end of tourist bonanza; end of good times; and the LIBs move on to their next victim country…(…bragging about how they used to live in Bim and advise the people and ting….)

    With respect to living within one’s means ? What question is that about ‘ball park figure’???

    It generally means simply limiting what you spend to what you have been able to earn. …..or as GP would confirm ‘by the sweat of his brow shall a man eat bread’ …. Rather than operating under the expectation that the world owes you a given standard of living.

  48. David Avatar
    David

    @LIB

    Don’t agree with the quote. It is a cop out. The dicussion is robust yes but if you have a point to make it can be made. Hell they can use a moniker. Tired of hearing the cop out crap while our societal standards ar slipping. NOT ACCEPTED. Tell your friends its time to get out of the comfort zone or be prepared to go to the twilight zone.

  49. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @Bush Tea
    Your arguments are interesting, but as I often find misdirected. I do not pontificate about everything under the sun. I speak rarely about science and little about the details of The Bible, where I do not feel qualified. I speak on subjects where I think I have knowledge and/or experience. That may be broad, but blow me down, I happened to have had the grace or misfortune to have that happen.

    If I am a good example of anything it may be of someone who is not intimidate by insults, or afraid to express my opinion even if it seems unpopular, or close off the opportunity for others to express themselves. I am also someone who is not impressed by claims that then come back as air when someone asks for substantiation. Terms should mean something, so if you for instance are talking of a grand scheme for the future that is different to now you owe it to yourself at least to show what that means. If you do know, you don’t know. No shame in that. But don’t pretend or suggest that there is an idea then not be able to spell it out. So what is the amount needed to be earned to spend on the sustainable investments that you envisage?

  50. livinginbarbados Avatar
    livinginbarbados

    @David
    To what quote are you referring?

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