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Submitted by Crusoe

How exactly does one sell millions of shares ‘erroneously’? Particularly in such a company as P&G? And the professional commenters say that some of the other drops ‘could be’ for the same reason? Do the trading systems not have checks and balances, even when making trades? Of course they do.

Lol. What a load of bollocks.

There are some who are trying to hoodwink the public when the market dips i.e. trying to boost the market, artificially. As said before, the markets do NOT reflect true net asset values nor future earning streams of companies, the current prices are artificial. This view is particularly bolstered by references such as above, which identify the coming oil supply issue and thus pricing and product costs, inflation, standard of living etc.

One big smoke and mirrors to hide the train coming at us. Why have we not heard about the problems in the trading systems that would allow such ‘erroneous trades’ before, after all these years of trading?

Wuh loss.

That said, why is our Government taking more loans to finance operating revenues (fiscal deficit)? Insanity.

As I said before, only raising more tax i.e. VAT and Capital Gains, can we address this issue, together with cost rationalisation.

Any person half versed in finance and economics knows that one does not fund operating costs by long term debt. i.e. Debt and the purpose of finance must be matched, as long as an alternative exists, which it does, as noted previously.

Absolutely crazy.

Piper going want a lot of payment.


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42 responses to “So, The 1000 Point Dip In The DOW Is Due To ‘erroneous trading’?”


  1. Crusoe we all know just how fragile the markets are given the volatility in debt-ridden countries like GREECE, SPAIN, PORTUGAL, UK & IRELAND and others who sadly being part of the EU and hence that places the EURO* (the currency of choice) in a rather unstable condition…

    The casino-style Las Vegas habits of speculators is as about as fickle as my 14 year old white cat has been deaf from birth and will jump at a shadow…

    Any system built on lies, lies, damn lies and rock ‘n’ roll will eventually fall through the floor…


  2. I asked BUSH TEA in a concurrent thread to probe into who’s buying BARBADOS G. BONDS and to also investigate who are the “VULTURES” buying our massive DEBT*…

    I await a response from the pundits!!!


  3. The factors which triggered the financial meltdown are still with us not so?

    Our political gurus and financiers have simply deferred the debt.

    Future generations will have to deal with it, in the meantime….


  4. @ David

    The IMF has just approved three-quarters of a TRILLION Euros in concert with EUROZONE countries including EU Central bank…

    This has been a shot of financial morphine in the arm of the markets this morning where all the FTSE 100 companies is in BLUE territory and climbing…

    As you rightly said David, we are just delaying the inevitable and heaping up debt on our kids and grandkids…

    Many are predicted the EURO will eventually collapse and Eurozone countries will withdraw back into their nationalistic boundaries adopting their old currencies…


  5. well there has been erroneous selling of shares before. see for some of the biggest mistakes http://www.smartmoney.com/investing/stocks/5-trading-errors-that-shook-the-markets/?page=2 there have been many that have not been report to save company imagine and they take the hit financially. just because you never heard of it before doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. it not just a case of having check and balances. they want to be able to react at a moments notice to acquire shares or sell them. if they want that then there can’t be enough checks and balances to prevent erroneous buying and selling. as for inflated market value well that is totally true. the is alot of made up money that fuel the stock market. money that exist only in the electronic system alone.

  6. DR. Justin Robinson Avatar
    DR. Justin Robinson

    According to news reports 38% of Barbados Light and Power has been sold for $85,000,000 US dollars. According to my calculations that works out to over $26 Barbados dollars per share. The book value of the company according to my caluclations is around BDS$35 per share. The latest share price on the stock exchange is around BDS $11.60.

    Precisely what is going on here? I would certainly like to hear the rationale for the shares being sold below book value. To an outside observer like me it seems that the stake was sold on the cheap at around a 25% discount from book value. I am sure I am wrong and that is not the case, but I would like to hear why Light and Power shares would be sold at a discount from book value? Is there something going on that would suggest that the balance sheet overstates the value of the company,

    To add to my confusion the shares have been sold at a around a 125% premium to the share price on the exchange. One of the major functions of a stock exchange is price discovery. Is the stock market performing a useful function if the stock market valuations are so way off the mark? I have heard the argument that because the shares in Barbados companies are so closely held, there is very little trading on the exchange and the market price is heavily influenced by trades from small investors who sell their shares cheaply to get some cash. My question is, now we have a trade by a large and supposedly well informed player is there no mechanism at all for the stock market price to reflect this information?


  7. @TB
    financial errors do happen, for example friday afternoons when everyone’s drunk ..fyi, prices are indicative and low or incorrect prices such as zero would cause automated systems to sell due to stop losses etc
    re: hip hop comments lets take it back to the old school boyeee
    Schoolly D. – B-Boy Rhyme and Riddle


  8. What happened to the DOW is just another msg to the US Congress and the rest of the world to let you know who the hell is in CONTROL.

    Senator Sanders and Ron Paul were pushing the ‘Audit Federal Reserve Bill.’ They wanted to end the secrecy of this institution and all the other ‘Too Big to Fails.’ They wanted the public to know where the US$2trillion of ‘tax payer’ money went. They wanted transparency and accountability. When Bernanke [fed chairman & ashkenazi jew] was asked where the 2Ts went, but he refused to say.

    So this big dip in the DOW is all about letting you know that it is the Gangster Bankers and definitely not Barack Obama [who was heavily supported by Goldman Sucks] that are in charge. That was just a WARNING to let the world know that the bankers are untouchable.

    And to prove to all that they are untouchable, they put the squeeze on Sanders nuts a little too hard and he has since returned with a watered down version of the bill… Just like they did with Dennis Kucinich who was adamant about not voting for Obama’s Health care bill, but after being taken up K30 ft in Airforce One and shown the drop below…….he too changed his mind and voted for that crappy bill.

    These are the same gangsters [Goldman Sucks] who have fleeced Greece and are now doing the same with Spain and Portugal. Once their ‘cradle of civilization’ has crumbled, everyone else is game.

    They have their prison camps in place, their Xes, their foreign forces have invaded and its just a matter of time.

    Think the Crips and the Bloods got game, well you ain’t see nothing yet. Its the JUGULAR this time!

    —————————————————–

    The B’dos PM needs to realise that the Gangster Bankers are Going for Broke…there ain’t no recovery on their radar and he had better have a back-up plan for the Bajan people and just in case he doesn’t he should be honest with them and let them know to ‘brek’ for self.


  9. Off Message>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    NEWS JUST IN –

    GORDON BROWN HAS STEPPED DOWN AS BRITISH PM….

    About time!!!


  10. NOT TRUE!!! Check your facts before spreading misinformation, TMB


  11. Mr. Brown announced that he WILL step down as leader of the Labour Party as soon as a new leader is elected.


  12. The NEWS on G. Brown is still unfolding but apparently he hasn’t jumped ship yet but will be passing the mantle as soon as some particulars are sorted with the LIBDEMS….

    DRAMA* in British politics…


  13. @Inkwell

    No misinformation here ole’ chap….

    My former university colleague Susan who works in Deputy PM’s office leaked the info at 11am but apparently “GORDY” is refusing to walk the plank TODAY!!!!


  14. @ Dr. Robinson

    Good questions. The basic answer is that the balance sheet value ($36.26 per share as at 31/12/2009) is accurate, but the combination of the small size of the Barbados Stock Exchange, the limited capital appreciation of the company’s shares over the years and the minimal dividend returns offered by the company (marginally over 3% for the past few years) conspires to repress the price that a shareholder can demand on the local market.

    However, a buyer who is looking for a solid long term investment that could be obtained for less than book value would find BL&P attractive in spite of the low dividend return. The holders of the 38% on the other hand, will get a price they could not have obtained on the local SE, so they will be happy.

    A one off transaction of this nature is unlikely to have an impact on local prices of the company’s stock.


  15. Sorry, TMB,

    Didn’t know that you had an inside source. I was merely depending on the old BBC.


  16. Football World Cup in a few weeks – now BA Cabin Crew will strike for 20 days…

    Is this some kinda’ joke?

    No wonder record numbers continue to fly VIRGIN ATLANTIC…


  17. @Inkwell

    British politics is in the latrine…

    Nick Clegg playing the HARLOT…

    GORDY* is being pushed by his party…

    Cameron more than likely will have to do a minority rule government…

    And as the ‘ole nursery rhyme goes – “LONDON BRIDGE IS FALLING DOWN….”

  18. DR. Justin Robinson Avatar
    DR. Justin Robinson

    How can the stock exchange continue to pretend that the shares are valued at $11.6 per share? They must find a mechanism for the value to reflect the new pricing.


  19. @Dr. Robinson,

    Note that this transaction did not take place on the exchange, since no BLP Holdings shares were traded.

    As you are well aware, the mechanism for the exchange to reflect this pricing is for buyers and sellers of the shares to incorporate this into future transactions. This is unlikely to happen because of the thinness of the trading and the lack of sophistication of the market. In addition, every buyer and seller has to decide for themselves, and the value to one buyer may not be the same as the value to another buyer – this is why it only makes sense with large numbers of buyers and sellers.

    Are you proposing that market players should be forced to do business at this price, or something close to it? What of all the other shares on the exchange that are not trading at fair value?

    You asked “Is the stock market performing a useful function if the stock market valuations are so way off the mark?” I am sure you already have your own answer to this question.


  20. Sorry, Light & Power Holdings (not BLPH).

    As of yesterday (Monday) the stock market report showed a bid for 47,541 LPH shares at $11.60 and no offers. Is it that no one wants to sell at $11.60 or that no one really wants to sell? (Granted, there are probably other bids and offers not reflected in the report). But surely there is no ordinary investor who would buy at $26 or anything to close to that. You can’t make a reasonable return (dividends) and you can’t expect to sell the shares at a profit because of the thin trading.

    So why is the $26 price any better than the $11.60?

    Just playing devil’s advocate – I think the local stock exchange is a waste of money that could better be spent elsewhere.


  21. I think the local defence force is a waste of money that could be spent somewhere else


  22. The BSE by accident or design is setup to serve a prominent group. It has been manipulated over the years by entities within said group.


  23. Very important question Dr.Robinson, the answers also address the real issue of the illiquidity of the market, that appears to be one problem, but surely only affecting pricing ‘Dr.R’s point’ to a certain extent?

    While a liquid market would surely encourage much more regular trading, even ‘speculation’ with its good and bad points, thus improving the way that price reflects value and demand, the current status still leaves a query of what method is now used for valuation.

    That is an answer for the BSE to make.

    On the issue of global markets, TMB’s point on the future of the Euro is a good one, personally I also think that what we now see, could result in the breakup of the Euro, if not the Union itself.

    But, as also noted above, there will be some that will fight against that, for various reasons.

    I very much doubt that Britain will now go to the Euro, indeed, did Cameron not promise (pinch of salt as always), to keep the Sterling? Now, with this current scenario, it provides Britain with moral and technical firepower to stall, even refuse in joining the Euro.

    On the issue of gobal markets also, is the incestuous relationship of large corporations, pension fund and pension fund managers, which play a large part if determining values based on reported earnings etc etc.

    The whole scenario is rather worrying, bearing in mind that the fox may indeed be part of the chicken-farm security team?

    Sorry, but I see one big train wreck, maybe not today, nor tomorrow, but slowly and surely.

    Now, compounding this we have serious concerns on the oil price, thus possibly run away inflation on the horizon.

    A lesson for Barbadians to be thrifty, but cars etc that use little gas, cut anything that will have high potential running costs i.e. airconditioners etc.

    If or more likely when the oil price bolts, one does not want to be paying high bills just for running costs such as car petrol.

    A time for austerity, already upon us, is becoming more dire daily.


  24. Equities and capital market across the caribbean is underdeveloped and lack sophistication.First of all we donot have the volume of trade to justify the operation and the marigns are too thin to incentivise the players.I think the old credit financing and venture capital is the way forwward for us.


  25. So I see the reincarnation of another thactherism idealogy about to be unleashed on the UK citizenry. Well as they say a society deserve the government they get.


  26. If memory serves the stock exchanges in Jamaica, T&T and Barbados were suppose to harmonize to facilitate cross-border movement of capital in a CSME framework. Has it worked? To add to what zion commented the Barbados public for sure has demonstrated little confidence in buying stock as a means of creating wealth and having a say in how our public companies are run. A lack of education perhaps?


  27. Not a lack of education, most probably a lack of confidence and as been mentioned above, specifically a lack of confidence in the ability to move funds at will i.e. liquidity.

    To persuade anyone to invest, one must first address this issue, as people will have changing needs for themselves and also changing perceptions of a company’s viability as an investment.

    That said, the ironic thing is that the international stock markets that are so liquid, also have their faults, as mentioned above.

    The advantage is that, IF one is adept at interpreting situations generally and in respect of companies specifically, one may move funds before issues arise. Not that I profess to be as I am not, but merely pointing out an obvious characteristic of the investment structure.

    The fallability of the international economies and markets is clearly exhibited, so I am not sure that we would want that model wholesale in any case.

    But, yes it would be an advantage if persons could invest freely with full disclosure and being able to make a clear decision.

    As it is, that seems to have disappeared from the internaitonal markets, maybe I am being rather harsh, but when one group or large group can impact the market to such an extent then we cannot take the markets as fair for all.

    But, with all of that, there must still be concern as to international economies and the long time that it will take to take a turn for the better.


  28. Dr Robinson,

    The administrators of the stock exchange cannot manipulate share values.

    An important distinction to bear in mind: the value of a company’s stock is not determined only by its intrinsic balance sheet value, but by (1), its growth rate, which influences capital appreciation, (2) the return on assets it achieves, (3), even more importantly, by the dividend policy of its board and (4) what investors are prepared to pay for the stock.

    Barbadian companies have traditionally been conservative, (read stingy) in sharing profits among its shareholders, paying dividends which merely approximate what an investor would earn if he put his money on deposit in the bank. Until this policy is changed, local companies are not going to see competition for their shares on the local stock exchange, because there is little incentive for investors by way of earnings, only capital appreciation, which is difficult and risky to forecast.

    Indeed, companies prefer to raise capital through bank borrowing rather than through share issues because they pay off bank borrowings over a prescribed period without diluting the earnings of current shareholders, whereas they would be committed to pay dividends on new shares forever.

    Even better if you can finance projected capital expenditure, not by bank borrowing, not by share issue, but by increasing the price of your product or service, as in the recent case of B,L&P.


  29. Technically, the owners of the 38% L&P Holdings stock have not changed.
    No shares were sold.
    These shares previously were held by a company called CI Power and they are still owned by that entity.

    What has happened is that the new company has purchased CI power.for the price stated by Doc R.


  30. ☡ Caution ☢
    Stocks will go down in bad markets
    (and good markets for profit taking)
    Free Falling


  31. DR. Justin Robinson Avatar
    DR. Justin Robinson

    My underlying point is the ludicrous situation the stock exchange and how it works creates. According to the BSE the entire Light and Power is worth around $189ml, yet 38% of the company sells for 170ml. The BSE and the way it works appears to leave Barbadian companies dangerously undervalued and hence cheap takeover targets.


  32. The undervaluing of companies on the stock market has been an unsatisfactory feature forever, but the Barbadian companies like it so, preferring to run the risk of a hostile turnover, rather than pay shareholders a decent return on their investment, a most selfish and ultimately self defeating policy.

    That’s the main reason the BSE is going nowhere fast.

    B,L&P for the year ended 31 Dec 08 achieved net profits attributable to shareholders of $31,225,000 or $1.66 per share. Of that profit, it paid a dividend of $.40 per share, giving investors a return of 3.45% based on current market value. In 2009, it earned a reduced profit of $27,920,000, $1.54 per share. To date the interim dividend paid out in the first quarter of 2010 suggests that the company will retain the $.40 per share dividend policy, but there could be an adjustment. Having said that, many may consider 3.45% a healthy return given recent bank rates.

    The rate increase granted the company effective March this year is unlikely to result in increased dividends for the shareholder as the increased revenue is earmarked to fund plant replacement and expansion.


  33. turnover/takeover


  34. What really bugs the hell out of me (and somebody should have attended the annual general meeting in Trinidad in April and demanded some answers) is this:

    One Caribbean Media launched its public offering in December 2006 amidst much fanfare and chest thumping at $6.35. The issue was fully subscribed. Two years later the stock was virtually stagnant on the exchanges of both countries and quoted at less than half the value (currently BDS$3.07). The new shareholders have therefore lost 51.6% of their investment. How come?

    One Caribbean Media is the largest and most successful media establishment in the region. What factors contributed to the decline in share price? Was the balance sheet of the company manipulated to reflect a higher than actual value to sucker potential investors? (Don’t answer that).

    Here’s where the BSE can make itself useful and provide some analysis. The shareholders at the time of the issue certainly reaped a windfall. It is crap like this that makes people distrustful of the stock market. The new shareholders deserve some answers and nobody is saying nothing.


  35. @Inkwell

    Hope that you were not suckered?

    No doubt a very few suffered a golden parachute as a result of the deal.


  36. @Dr Robinson,

    Perhaps not the best example to use of a Bds company being undervalued. The earnings power of a utility has a great deal less to do with its book value than the regulatory regime it operates in. Selling at substantially less than book on the local exchange is likely an opinion on the public rates policy BL&P lives with (at least in part – see below).

    Perhaps, also, it may not be negligible to the sales price (relative to the BSE price) that this transaction appears to have taken place far away from the foreign exchange controls of Barbados.

    Finally, the BSE price is not dynamic – it’s a ‘photo’ compared to the ‘video’ of more active/liquid/deep exchanges and as such liable to mislead (in valuation terms). It is a cast iron certainty that if a buyer for over 6 million shares of BL&P appeared on the local exchange that, by the time he found enough sellers, the average price paid would have leaped from the $11.60 towards book (less some allowance for the regulatory regime).


  37. Would be interesting to read comment about the decision of Grace Kennedy to delist from the Barbados Stock Exchange (BSE) and the up coming AGM of the Pine Hill Dairy to discuss same. The vanilla response by the BSE General Manager in the media today did not inspire anyone.


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