Submitted by the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE)
The Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) issues three press releases:-
Barbados Association of Professional Engineers Issues Statements on Potholes and South Coast Sewage Problems
Submitted by the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) The Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) issues three press releases:- The Potholes Problem (1) The Potholes Problem (2) The South Coast Sewage Problem
136 responses to “Barbados Association of Professional Engineers Issues Statements on Potholes and South Coast Sewage Problems”
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As a people we are beginning to forget who we are and what we are about. The narrative ,which we surround every event in this country ,speaks volumes. We need to change it if any meaningful progress is to be made over the next five years.
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John at 8 :32 PM
Some of those vehicles/ equipment should not have been allowed to land in Barbados period. They are too heavy for the substrata on which our roads are built.
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Interesting comments.
I did not think it would have been necessary to point out that engineers, or indeed any committed workers, can only be effective to the extent that needed tools, materials and “latitude to act” are available to them.
The academic and practical training that is mandatory for all engineering students – along with ongoing continuing professional development, ensures high competency levels. However, even the best possible engineer will be incapable of solving problems when needed resources are simply not made available.If a pump is needed to replace a damaged one in a sewerage plant, and finances are unavailable to purchase that pump for two years, then no amount of engineering commitment will address the root problem. Resources must be provided.
Additionally, while engineers provide advice and technical reports in our present arrangement, final decisions are made on mostly economic, legal, political and such considerations.
It is thought that the decision to opt for the South Coast Sewerage system was made, based mainly on the initial capital cost considerations. So is the broad decision to use asphalt road surfaces rather than concrete. In the longer term – over a full life cycle, the economics are much different.
The changes which BAPE are proposing seek to bring much more of a long-term engineering focus into the national decision making processes.
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The key problem with heavy vehicles is with the proper distribution of the weight via multiple axles to reduce the pressure on individual types.
This can quite easily be calculated and proper standards and limits can be set.As always, the challenge is in enforcement. Additional axles, wheels and tires mean additional costs to owners. It would probably require a non-political authority such as the NTIA to establish and enforce such standards.
The much simpler issue of utility services damaging, and then poorly reinstating, sections of road have proven to be epidemic, so good luck with weight management under our current structure.
Of course roads can be constructed to standards for very heavy vehicles, but given the current unavailability of resources to build and maintain even our basic roads, this option is not a viable one.
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Excellent questions about standards of road building in Barbados.
A well built asphalt road should enjoy a life in the region of 30 years if proper ongoing maintenance is done. This includes managing drainage, restricting unauthorized damage to the road, observing load limits, and occasional cosmetic resurfacing in order to maintain a sound water seal of the surface layer.Concrete roads tend to have a longer viable lifespan and require less stringent ongoing maintenance- but have higher upfront capital costs.
The question of the enforcement of standards is a complex one.
It is challenging to enforce standards without there being a clear hands-off relationship between the inspector and the builder. Consider that the same department responsible for fixing the road is also responsible for enforcing the standards, and that finances are very limited.The fact that many of our pot holes are recurring events would suggest that we have not been setting and enforcing strong standards. The current structure is clearly not working well.
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BABE
Proper ongoing maintenance? We know Barbados is not in the habit of practicing that therefore I would like to know how soon should maintenance commence after a road has been constructed according to approve road construction standards? Also, is maintenance only affected when there is obvious ware and tear?
What constitutes a well built asphalt road anyway?
How long before a road should be completely repaved?
What is the assessment criteria used in making determinations?
With respect to standards why is it so complex in the case of Barbados.
Your group basically operates like the watch dogs for engineering. You know fully well that a lot of Barbados failures is base on the fact that we scoff at standards, take a laid back approach to proper protocol proceedures, and think that the only persons fit enough to guide any government is over and away people. You reports point fingers directly at the political directorate as the cause for a lot of Barbados infrastructural failings. What makes you think that anything you say will make a difference?
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Many of the engineers are employees and play the mortage card. Many work for companies that receive large contracts from government or influential private sector companies.
Connect the dots.
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DaVID
There is a reason behind my questions. I do not have to connect any dots. You and I know full well, why the Barbados system rocks stink and why it is highly compromised. Does Barbados want to be run efficiently or in an adhoc way? The answer has been obvious for years.
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Wily suspects there MAYBE an election in the offing, while driving around the south coast and St Philp there appears to be an abundance of New patches appearing on 4 year old neglected roads. Wily does not know if these new patches appearing regularly ever 4 years has any significance to the electorally cycle. Also Wily is observing numerous areas receiving de-bushing, hummmmm.
Wily thinks maybe the government is trying to BRIBE the electorate.
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@SSS
It is how we roll in Barbados. Just listen to the debate on the Appropiations.
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Does Barbados want to be run efficiently or in an adhoc way?
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All any Government has to do is manage what is there and optimize performance.
Minimise taxes and Government interference and let the economy move.
It used to be so long ago, deficit financing did not occur, whatever taxes were collected ran the country.
Complete incompetents which we have in parliament and may continue to have for years to come who get the country involved in all sorts of weird and wonderful projects with “innovative” ways of finance have been a recipe for disaster.
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The solution always revert to the default – lack of resources ,lack of money etc. But is that really so? Or is money just the veil ? More profoundly is it the vehicle through which wealth is transferred from one group to the other?
We need to understand the political dynamics at play here. I do not mean party politics. The latter is at the shallow level of analysis.
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John at 10 :52 AM
John I appreciate like me you are trying to drill down to the real cause of the problem. Please take what I have to say on board.
The Barbados economy is Public Sector driven. Without GOB expenditure and Investment there would be little or no private sector except the Distributive Trade sector. Almost all the other sectors needed a large GOB injection of finance and innovation. Think about it.GOB apparent interference is to ensure an EQUITABLE distribution of the pie.
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The Barbados economy is Public Sector driven. Without GOB expenditure and Investment there would be little or no private sector except the Distributive Trade sector. Almost all the other sectors needed a large GOB injection of finance and innovation. Think about it.
GOB apparent interference is to ensure an EQUITABLE distribution of the pie.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That’s why it is failing!!!!
It is the communist/fascist model at work here!!
That’s why I say Barbados is a pseudo communist/fascist society.
It can only fail!!
We need a private sector driven economy with minimal government interference.
All of the GOB injection of finance can only come from taxes.
As the economy fails, more and more taxes are required.
Hence the “socialist responsibility levy”!!
It is going to fail, it has never worked anywhere!!
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There is nothing EQUITABLE about the distribution of the pie in a communist/fascist economy, whether pseudo or real.
What we have now we have never had in Barbados.
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“All of the GOB injection of finance can only come from taxes.”
If that were true, we wouldn’t have debt? -
The funding of roads aside, the BAPE also raises the technical issues.
Contractors, the world over, cheat. The bidding process is competitive, and even when it isn’t, the lower their costs the higher their profits.
In repairing roads, properly, you cannot just ‘pelt’ some asphaltic mix into an existing hole, and tamp it down, and expect it to last? If the base layer has failed, it must be repaired, or the ensuing patch is going to fail. The question is if the priority of the repair crew is only speed, or they lack the proper cutting and compacting equipment, and/or materials they will do what is easiest. This is human nature.
Follow a repair crew and watch them. You will see little cutting, little base layer repair and compaction, little use of any materials other than asphalt, which is not intended to be placed at thicknesses beyond a few inches. -
NorthernObserver February 16, 2018 at 2:30 PM #
“All of the GOB injection of finance can only come from taxes.”
If that were true, we wouldn’t have debt?++++++++++++++++++++++
You are of course right, missed that!!!
The lenders however only lend on condition that they be paid back and Taxes are what does it!!
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@ John February 16, 2018 at 3:13 PM
“You are of course right, missed that!!!
The lenders however only lend on condition that they be paid back and Taxes are what does it!!”Absolutely correct in closing the vicious circle of government’s inflows and outflows via the sucking tube attached to the tank of taxpayers’ hard-working udders decorated with their sore-looking nipples.
Yet the few unadulterated profitable teats (like the BNTCL and Hilton) are being sold off for a forex song with the abused local taxpayers and family standing not a ghost of a chance to invest either Bajan dollars or their offshore savings like you, Hants, Sergeant and “NO”.
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@ John
“We need a private sector driven economy.” Yes we do. Why is the private sector not leading growth and development? Why is it that the GOB has to take over private sector businesses?
Why when they turn profitable the private sector compete to take them over?
Do you think the GOB wanted to run the public transport system?
Do you think the GOB wamted to run a sugar industry?
Do you think the GOB wanted to drill for oil?
Do you think the GOB really wanted to be in the petroleum distribution business?
DO you think that the GOB really wanted to be in the hotel business on the South Coast?
GOB went into these area because your private sector was risk averse?They call upon the taxpayers to take the risk.
SO Think John.
Where should I send the bill for this tutorial? I do not want payment in Bit Coin either. Legal tender Currency such as BB$ is adequate. -
You sure about the BB$ payment senor!… US greenback don’t get stale with devaluation beyond standard forex ups and down. 🙂
BTW, solid tutorial but govts do maintain a grip on the tiller, so to speak, by charging the successful companies rents, not so!
Nothing wrong with being risk averse …govt sets the tone and they can continue that tone as long as they so desire; its their decision to pull out.
Take NASA and ‘one small step for man….’sweet stiff. Now at this juncture in time there is a brilliant showman making one big electric car step around the galaxy and also reusing rocket engines and other extraordinary science.
NASA has almost stopped that part of the program…did they have to?
Why did private enterprise ‘surpass’ them or did they?
Why do armies train special forces on tax payer dime and see them go off to a Blackwater and rent them back at exorbitant fees again at tax payer dime?
Who supports political campaigns if not these same private companies?
So excellent tutorial sir but we all do have to THINK on these things…A begets B which begets C which then often takes us right back to A!!!
Govt do exactly what makes them more powerful and is able to get the money long term that they desire.
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@ Bernard Codrington February 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM
“They call upon the taxpayers to take the risk.”Quite! And not the personal purses of the policy makers aka politicians.
So why this current binge of Privatization just to move to another arc of the circle of economic musical chairs with the taxpayers being piggy in the middle?
Wouldn’t the same government have to take over the same BNTCL and Hilton when they turn out to be just two dying old pigs in a bag of suspect forex earnings?
Isn’t the economic life of Barbados just an exercise is watchful futility with the same damn thing over and over by exchanging King Sugar for Queen Tourism the ‘doyen’ of economic prostitution?
Why put all your economic eggs in one tourism dependant basket when the threats from climate change and those man-made environmental disasters like the south coast sewerage scandal can addle them in a twinkle of a tourism season?
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@ Miller at 6: 01 PM
Me thinks you are beginning to understand the parable of “rearranging the chairs on the Titanic”. That is what I call doing something even though it is ineffectual.
@ dpD
70 % of modern technological progress are consequential to NASA space program.
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@ Miller
It is not the politician’s fault that some people think that they are contributing anything other than public service.
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Barbados Association of Pothole Engineers now in session.
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Bernard Codrington February 16, 2018 at 5:26 PM #
@ John“We need a private sector driven economy.” Yes we do.
Why is the private sector not leading growth and development?
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GOB/Taxpayer there for the taking!!
Why risk?Why is it that the GOB has to take over private sector businesses?
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State control, fundamental fascist/communist dictaWhy when they turn profitable the private sector compete to take them over?
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…. like? what Government business made a profit?Do you think the GOB wanted to run the public transport system?
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Yes!! It thought it would be easy to make a killing!!
State control…..Do you think the GOB wamted to run a sugar industry?
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Yes it wanted to control the land
Plus, back in the day it was a major source of foreign exchange
Plus, State control ….Do you think the GOB wanted to drill for oil?
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Yes, it thought running a business was easy and oil promised $$!!
State controlDo you think the GOB really wanted to be in the petroleum distribution business?
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Yes, state control!!DO you think that the GOB really wanted to be in the hotel business on the South Coast?
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Yes, can borrow money and lots of cash floating around
State controlGOB went into these area because your private sector was risk averse?
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No, it went in to get the imagined profits and assets it thought were present
…. and State control of the productive sector of the economyThey call upon the taxpayers to take the risk.
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From where else would the GOB get revenue?SO Think John.
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Figured it out a while goWhere should I send the bill for this tutorial?
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Are you any the wiser now??I do not want payment in Bit Coin either. Legal tender Currency such as BB$ is adequate.
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When the pseudo communist/fascist economy fails and devaluation ensues you might regret not asking for greenbacks!!Do you remember Carsicott?
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@Bernard
“Barbados had/ has the reputation for being among the top three most competent public service in the Western Hemisphere.”
Where you buying that cheap rum you drinking, it’s scrambling your brain and making you dillisional.
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Barbados finest engineers are in the talk show this morning. Their commentary is telling!
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Their commentary is indeed telling. What is it telling again?
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Decisionmaking is made my government on the preference of the individual in the chair and not driven by the policy aligned to the national interest.
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David BU
I heard one of the engineers saying the sewage plant was built according to the specifications of the IADB and with provisions for improvements as time goes by.
He also said the problems with the plant was due to two main factors: (1) unforeseen circumstances and (2) lack of an adequate maintenance program.
And this was what many contributors to this forum wrote.
It was the usual DLP yard-fowls that were politicizing the issue.
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@Artax
Yes, did they also say that the 2007 breach was a learning opportunity that was not capitalized on? That we should have built a bypass to allow for contingency planning?
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Thanks, David forgot that. So that when the shit hit the fan the national interest is brought back into perspective as the tunnel vision think tank seeks to impress you with a lot of talks and very little action. The man who said he is affiliated with the Stantec group is also good friends of the previous government. There is a reason why the government of Barbados do not maintain anything.
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Yes, Stantec worked with the 3s project also they were contracted on the Cahill project? Not sure if there is something to be read from it.
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Sir
There are only a few engineering firms in a tiny country such as Barbados with the resources to tender for large projects. This will be case whether the DLP is government, the BLP is government or even if there is no government.Such projects are impossible without the inputs of locally registered engineers, so any association of a large firm such as Stantec with large national projects is only to be expected – and can generally be relied on to be completely professional….which is why Mr Hutchinson can speak so honestly and professionally on projects from any era.
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BAPE President February 19, 2018 at 11:46 AM #
There are only a few engineering firms in a tiny country such as Barbados with the resources to tender for large projects…………(Quote)
Then widen the net, to the region or even internationally. Competition raise the bar. LACK OF COMPETITION IN A LIMITED TALENT POOL ENCOURAGES LAZINESS.
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@BAPE president
Thanks for the feedback, perhaps what we need is a more active BAPE TO negate the mistrust that has taken root by general public given the several issues we are having with major projects. The question was not meant to be an attack on engineer Hutchinson, more about expressing frustration at an obvious inertia that seems to be systematic in how we manage our affairs.
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David BU
I agree that BAPE should have been consulted in making an input in government’s new “recovery plan.”
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@Artax
Grenville just vacated the president’s chair so why would the government confide the sewage problem to the head of a political party?
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” Tropical Storm Risk, whose scientists are based at University College London, is echoing
what some U.S. forecasters say: 2018 will be a busy hurricane season.”
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@Hants
It is the same point the BAPE engineers made on the Sunday show, the model predicts a more active season,
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@ David,
Let us hope they find a solution before the streets of Hastings and Bridgetown are flooded with excrement.
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My geologist buddy is telling me injecting sewage into the limestone is “Nuts”!!
It will get to the sea!!
However, it could be put in empty pockets in the sedimentary rocks from which oil has been extracted!!
Don’t know if oil was extracted wherever they are drilling the 300 foot well.
The British Union Oil Company did have leases to drill all over Barbados 100 years ago.
My guess is that while the 300 feet is probably deeper than the basal contours it won’t be close to the depths from which oil is extracted.
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My geologist buddy is telling me injecting sewage into the limestone is “Nuts”!!
It will get to the sea!!Just as an FYI, I heard local engineer Andrew Hutchinson on Brasstacks last Sunday say he was concerned that the injection wells would not work as planned.
The idea is not to store the sewage laden water within the confines of the injection wells but for the liquid in the wells to continuously soak into the porous surrounding rocks (like a suck well). Hutchinson’s concern was that, because of the high concentration of sewage in the water, biological activity would occur in the wells and a film would soon build up on the sides of the wells so that after a few weeks, the sewage water would not penetrate into the pores of the surrounding rocks. If this scenario played out as he thought was possible, he estimated that the number of proposed injection wells would only function for a month or so before becoming useless for the intended purpose.
Hutchinson’s favoured alternative approach would be to run an 18inch relief pipe out into the sea off Graeme Hall to discharge the sewage water directly out to sea. He proposed a pipe running 800meters to 1Km out to sea. He claimed that studies could be completed fairly rapidly to calculate the best practical distance off shore to place the outlet. He did admit that there was still a chance that depending on currents some of this polluted water might possibly make it back to the near shore south coast waters. I believe his estimated cost for such a pipe (IIRC)would run $16,000,000 dollars and take about 4 months to complete.
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Not 16 million, 6 million.
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The BAPE president made the interesting interjection on the Sunday show why the sewage lines were not located on the seabed and not encased deep under the road. The reason to be expected was cost!
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@ David, Thanks for the correction.
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@BAPE President
Driving across the Chamberlain Bridge recently the blogmaster wondered about the structural integrity of the bridge. We have others.
DOES BAPE have this matter on the radar? We can include buildings etc.
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@David who wrote “DOES BAPE have this matter on the radar? We can include buildings etc.”
Does the Government of Barbados have engineers who are responsible for the inspection and monitoring of infrastructure?
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