Submitted by the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE)
The Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) issues three press releases:-
Barbados Association of Professional Engineers Issues Statements on Potholes and South Coast Sewage Problems
Submitted by the Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) The Barbados Association of Professional Engineers (BAPE) issues three press releases:- The Potholes Problem (1) The Potholes Problem (2) The South Coast Sewage Problem
136 responses to “Barbados Association of Professional Engineers Issues Statements on Potholes and South Coast Sewage Problems”
-
@ David,
Doan mine me but the Ministry of Transport and works is responsible for the roads and you drove across a road on a bridge. lol
-
BAPE President February 19, 2018 at 11:46 AM #
There are only a few engineering firms in a tiny country such as Barbados with the resources to tender for large projects…………(Quote)
I am surprised this brief statement has not led to further discussion since implicit in it is everything that goes to the heart of the failure of post-independence Barbados.
If there are only a few structural engineering firms in Barbados, and on occasion they have too much work or for whatever reason they are unable to tender for big contracts, why in the name of Heavens must these big jobs go to a locally domiciled firm.
Widen the net, regionally or internationally, to include the brightest and best from the Caribbean region or the rest of the world.
Under normal circumstances, all things being equal, it is preferable that Bajan firms be offered the work, but the priority must be providing Barbadians with the best service.
This mind-set goes for most of our appointments, it is why we have lots of square pegs in round holes.
The Barbadianisation of all out executive posts is a romantic view that does not match reality. The people must decide: do we want the best, or do we want Bajans? Let us start with financial regulation, court administration, high court judges, top police officers, permanent secretaries, teachers, and others.
Leninist ideas such as ISO9001, nonsense about a creative economy, or balderdash about foreign reserves are not the easy answers. -
Hutchinson’s favoured alternative approach would be to run an 18inch relief pipe out into the sea off Graeme Hall to discharge the sewage water directly out to sea.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I talked with the Backhoe Driver when I first started looking at the channel and sluice gate a while ago.
That was his solution!!
-
The problem with the well and the pipe offshore is that neither addresses the flow of raw sewage through leaky pipes to the sewage plant where it will be treated and the effluent put into the well or pumped out to sea.
If we have issues with corrosion in the tunnels and pipes, no amount of wells or outfalls will solve it.
Raw sewage will continue to end up on the streets
-
John February 20, 2018 at 12:31 PM #
Hutchinson’s favoured alternative approach would be to run an 18inch relief pipe out into the sea off Graeme Hall to discharge the sewage water directly out to sea.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I talked with the Backhoe Driver when I first started looking at the channel and sluice gate a while ago.
That was his solution!!
ARE YOU SAYING JOHN THAT THE SOLUTION IS REALLY VERY SIMPLE……….AS IT VERY OFTEN IS?
-
@John
What about the cost comparative between sea and land?
-
I heard one of the engineers saying the sewage plant was built according to the specifications of the IADB and with provisions for improvements as time goes by.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The specifications will not be drawn by the bank.
The bank will hire engineers to do that job.
Maybe it has in house engineers but if that approach is used clearly the bank will end with a lemon because those engineers can never do the same job as engineers who practice on a day to day basis in the area.
-
The competence of the original engineers who drew the specs is critical.
-
@John
According to the authorities the bypass pump at Lucky Horseshoe will correct the leaking to the street but they need to fix the 10 pump that is broken, they are using a six inch now.
-
Georgie Porgie February 20, 2018 at 12:41 PM #
John February 20, 2018 at 12:31 PM #
Hutchinson’s favoured alternative approach would be to run an 18inch relief pipe out into the sea off Graeme Hall to discharge the sewage water directly out to sea.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I talked with the Backhoe Driver when I first started looking at the channel and sluice gate a while ago.
That was his solution!!
ARE YOU SAYING JOHN THAT THE SOLUTION IS REALLY VERY SIMPLE……….AS IT VERY OFTEN IS?++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What I am saying is that you can’t just look at the effluent and getting rid of it.
12.9 million dollars sunk in a well is like the 50 million sunk in the hole in the ground at Greenland a quarter century ago.
The backhoe driver is limited in his appreciation of the problem because he is seeing only what is in front of him.
There is already a pipe out to sea off the Hilton.
The problem is getting the effluent to it from Graeme Hall.
A pipe from Graeme Hall out to sea solves this problem ….. but … what about the sewage travelling through corroded pipes to the plant.
This is not a simple problem to solve!!!
The hardest thing is to understand what the actual problems are, the solutions then become easy.
I do not think that up to now the problems are fully understood … that’s what I am saying.
-
David February 20, 2018 at 12:50 PM #
@John
According to the authorities the bypass pump at Lucky Horseshoe will correct the leaking to the street but they need to fix the 10 pump that is broken, they are using a six inch now.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If pump capacity is the problem preventing a temporary solution, then reduce the flow of water to the coast by reducing pressure or water rationing.
-
David February 20, 2018 at 12:50 PM #
@John
According to the authorities the bypass pump at Lucky Horseshoe will correct the leaking to the street but they need to fix the 10 pump that is broken, they are using a six inch now.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do you know if what is “leaking into the street” is
effluent being pumped from the plant to the Hilton through leaky pipes,
sewage travelling to the plant through leaky pipes,
sea water as a result of tidal effects
or a combination of all three?
-
Based on what is in the public domain it appears to be all the above. Perhaps the BAPE is able to clarify.
-
He also said the problems with the plant was due to two main factors: (1) unforeseen circumstances and (2) lack of an adequate maintenance program.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do we know what the unforeseen circumstances were?
Is this an admission of fault at the design stage?
-
Could be movement in the bed given proximity to the sea, earth movement caused by tremors etc.
-
The specifications will not be drawn by the bank.
The bank will hire engineers to do that job.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++I agree with the engineer, especially after reading the information on the IADB web site relative to the loan.
Why could not the unforeseen circumstances include ruptured pipes, etc (as suggested by the engineer) rather than being “an admission of fault at the design stage?”
You are basically scraping the bottom of the barrel.
-
The following information was taken from the IADB web site relative to the South Coast Sewage Project. The information is there for all to read (even the politicians and yard-fowls that want to politicized the issue):
The primary objective of the project is to bring the near-shore waters on the south coast to a bacteriological standard that corresponds to the accepted international standards and to reduce the chemical contamination affecting the reefs, marine life and beaches.
Specifically, the project would: (a) stem the contamination of the near-shore seawater and the consequential deterioration of the coral reefs and other marine life; (b) prevent further contamination of groundwater reserves in the project area; and (c) improve general sanitary conditions.
The project would also contribute to improving the operation and maintenance of the existing Bridgetown sewerage system and the efficiency of the Barbados Water Authority (BWA) in the commercial and financial management areas.
DESCRIPTION:
Project works would consist of: (a) a collection system (sewers); (b) five lift stations; (c) a transmission line; (d) a wastewater treatment plant and main pumping station; (e) an outfall line into the sea; and (f) in-house connections of properties in the project area. Complementary components include: (a) in-house connections of the central Bridgetown sewerage system (retroactive financing); (b) water meters to improve revenues of the BWA; and (c) operation and maintenance equipment.A technical assistance program would include: (a) institutional strengthening of the BWA which would assume responsibility for the operation and maintenance of the sewerage system; (b) an operational assistance program including on-the-job training; and (c) a water-quality monitoring program. These last two activities would be implemented with Bank financing for two years after the completion of the project.
BENEFITS:
The project would contribute to sustain the Barbados tourism industry by restoring the quality of nearshore water in the area in Barbados with the highest density of tourism accommodations. The tourism and other sectors would benefit from the preservation of reefs and trap fisheries and, as a consequence, the reduction of beach erosion.The new sewerage system would also improve health conditions from the resident population and create private benefits by maintaining property values and replacing more costly private sewage disposal systems. Finally, the project would improve the financial viability of the public sewerage system and the public utility in charge of it, the BWA.
RISKS:
To achieve the planned improvements in water standards, the design of the system has to be without major flaws and the operation of the system well managed. The risk of sub-standard operation of the sewerage system will be minimized by a two-year operational assistance for the WTP and a 10-year monitoring program of the water quality.Both programs will permit to correct problems detected. Reaching full project benefits will also depend upon the timely completion of the in-house connections. This risk is minimized through the financing of the in-house connections program in the project area, the costs of which would be recovered through the rates charged for water and sewerage services.
-
The following information is also interesting:
Ouality of near-shore waters
1.14 As part of the preparation of the proposed project, diagnostic studies were carried out from June to September 1992, using IDB financing, to determine whether the near-shore waters on the south coast exceed the bacteriological standards (faecal coliforms and streptococci) established by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and whether the chemical standards are consistent with a healthy coastal marine environment. 4/ The USEPA standards 5/ refer to a mean or median standard and an extreme standard (no more than 10% of observations should exceed a specified level).COMPREHENSIVE SAMPLING was carried out in two phases: a pilot phase for four beaches over a 30-day period and the final sampling of ten beaches over a 60-day period. The sampling was BASED on PROTOCOLS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED by the Bank. The results were then analyzed to verify their statistical significance.
1.15 The study indicated that all beaches violated the extreme standards at one time or 0ther and that eight of ten beaches violated the extreme standard in a statistically significant manner (that is, that the bacteriological counts are not likely to be unusual occurrences)
6/The study suggested that the violations are highly related to tidal conditions. When the tide is coming in, bacteria are pushed towards the shore and counts build up.
When the tide is going out, the counts fall and, ve e, three beaches have no problem at all and six beaches have no problem with two of the three mean bacteriological standards.
Three beaches (Oistins, Welches and Pebbles) exceed the mean standard indicating that they probably violate USEPA standards most of the time. In fact, while Oistins is always in violation of some standard, Pebbles is in violation of all standards all the time. This is the beach most often used by two of the largest hotels on the island.
The study concludes: “On the basis that a beach should be closed to bathers whenever any of six USEPA bacteriological contamination standards are exceeded, all ten of the beaches investigated on the south coast of Barbados would have been closed in each of the five 30-day periods of the study; i.e. all beaches would have been permanently closed.”
-
Given this information and the current situation with the sewage plant, it can be suggested that the relevant authorities (or both BLP & DLP administrations) perhaps did not find it necessary (or urgent) to conduct more testing on a continuous basis, failed to implement an adequate maintenance program and did not extend the plant to accommodate an increasing volume of sewage.
-
Sir
Perhaps you may now agree with BAPE that the root problem which we face is not an engineering issue, but one of systemic failure, which is driven by an organizational structure that is outdated and lacking accountability. -
BAPE President
If your comment is mean for me, where did I mentioned in any of my contributions relative to this topic that I did not agree with BAPE or that the sewage problem was an engineering issue?
If you read my contributions, I have always maintained that the design or the size of the plant was not the cause of the sewage problem (as was being suggested by BU’s resident DLP yard-fowl “ac”)………
………it was the lack of an efficient maintenance program by both BLP & DLP administrations.
-
I think there was an element of graft involved from the beginning.
I believe there was a buy off of substandard materials which has now come back to haunt us.
Money passed.
There should be an investigation of whether what is in the ground matches what was specified to be there.
I heard a story today that makes me pretty sure that we are watching substandard materials fail.
I can’t prove it, only allege it at this moment.
I am even concerned about the role of IADB.
-
Hi Artax
No disagreements here. But lack of an efficient maintenance program would constitute an engineering issue. Such a program would have been prescribed by the plant designers and indeed was enforced during the warranty period.
Systemic failure is much much worse.
We have adopted a structure that almost guarantees failure – except in the once-in-a-lifetime instance where we can find an almost perfect dictator in chief,Management systems need to be dynamic, self-correcting, state of the art, and accountable. Such management cannot be found via popularity contests. We must systematically seek out and recruit the very best talent available – and then hold that talent to the highest possible standards.
The National Transport Infrastructure Authority, which BAPE proposed to address the pot hole problem, is an a ample of such a management structure.
Our current political system guarantees continued pot holes and other failures.
-
BAPE President February 21, 2018 at 7:31 PM #
“The National Transport Infrastructure Authority, which BAPE proposed to address the pot hole problem, is an a ample of such a management structure. Our current political system guarantees continued pot holes and other failures.”
BAPE President
In MY opinion, your “National Transport Infrastructure Authority (NTIA)” is an excellent idea…….and with so many vehicles on the roads……..road taxes should be allocated to fund that entity.
But I will go a bit further and suggest that those individuals that have roads blocked with derelict vehicles should be fined or the vehicles sold and the funds realized also be allocated to the NTIA.
-
The primary objective of the project is to bring the near-shore waters on the south coast to a bacteriological standard that corresponds to the accepted international standards and to reduce the chemical contamination affecting the reefs, marine life and beaches.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
If this was the primary objective the project was a catastrophic failure.
The Bank that financed it needs to investigate the reasons.
For me the problem is the Bank may be complicit.
I don’t like the rapidity with which 12.9 million was advanced to dig a well.
I am not a geologist yet I know there is something wrong.
It almost looks like an act of desperation to be seen to be doing something.
This is one of those issues where the responsible institutions need to stand up tall and be counted.
Let the chips fall as they may.
My gut tells me there are people who need to be fired or prosecuted, …. not only politicians.
-
“If this was the primary objective the project was a catastrophic failure.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++How can one determine “the project was a catastrophic failure,” without taking into consideration that:
“As part of the preparation of the proposed project, diagnostic studies were carried out from June to September 1992, using IDB financing, to determine whether the near-shore waters on the south coast exceed the bacteriological standards (faecal coliforms and streptococci) established by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and whether the chemical standards are consistent with a healthy coastal marine environment.”
“COMPREHENSIVE SAMPLING was carried out in two phases: a pilot phase for four beaches over a 30-day period and the final sampling of ten beaches over a 60-day period. The sampling was BASED on PROTOCOLS PREVIOUSLY APPROVED by the Bank. The results were then analyzed to verify their statistical significance.”
It seems as though the allocades being bestowed upon you by members of your “fan club”and wanting to further impress them are perhaps afffecting your ability to think rational and reasonable.
-
How do 1992 sampling results as preparation for the project relate to the primary objective outcome of the project … ie at project completion some years later?
Isn’t your extract simply saying the nearshore waters were established to be contaminated before the project was begun and this justified the funding for the project?
Was the IADB saying we will advance funds in order that the near shore waters can be improved?
We have three advisories … Canada, the UK and the USA … in effect.
Do you think the quality of the near shore waters has been improved?
Let me ask it more simply …. Will you go and frolic in the nearshore waters next time the two ministers take to the waves to demonstrate there is no problem?
-
John December 5, 2016 at 10:10 PM #
So long as raw sewage is pumped into the swamp the whole intention of reducing the fecal coliform levels in near shore waters is defeated.
A typical Zone 1 buffer around a pumping station gives an idea of how far bacteria can travel before its concentration will decay to safe levels.
Just take the distance from the ABC highway to the Belle pumping station as a guide for the distance away from a pumping station “development” is allowed.You quickly realise that if a pumping station were to be put in the near shore waters the sewage plant would probably be in the Zone 1 buffer …. its a crude measure and I stand to be corrected.
The monies borrowed and paid to the contractors to build the South Coast Sewage System have thus been misspent and our leaders need to be held to account.
We all know our inglorious leaders got a cut too!!
At the moment the only way to redeem the investment is to make the sewage plant work perfectly, perhaps even consider putting a secondary system as a backup so that there is no way raw sewage gets into the swamp.
I am willing to bet there is already backup but if not then it should be provided.
No engineer is going to design a system like that without backup.
I think the long term goal should be to remove the sluice gate and let the sea and lake figure out their respective levels on their own with no man made interference.
Nobody needs to go shooting in the swamp in these days.
But that can only happen if the sewage plant never breaks down or if there is a failsafe backup to avoid dumping raw sewage into the swamp.
…. and if both do breakdown, our leaders need to be given buckets and a moses so they can transport the crap out to sea for disposal at a safe distance from shore.
-
David December 6, 2016 at 6:46 AM #
Exchanges between Denis Kellman MP and the public:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Look in the same thread from two years ago.
Here is Liz
Liz Thompson Actually Denis, the planning for the South Coast Sewerage Plant was done by Brandford Taitt not Mia Mottley. Perhaps you will get an opportunity to ask him why a primary plant was built.
The answer is though, that that is what the IDB was prepared to fund. The plant does have the capacity to be stepped up to tertiary.
Perhaps the real issue is why you’ll chose to ignore her when she was cautioning that urgent attention was needed at the plant
…. and Kelli
Denis Kellman Now you see why they blamed me for not accepting the IDB’s money to build toilets better than the kitchen and bedroom , with space between the house and the toilet.
… and in between an irate member of the public
Charles Gill These politicians so freaking childish and wicked all wanna promise to fix problems did nothing and only excuse each time is who build this or that blame game childish bunch a thiefing cunts all wanna want locking up only gd at wasting and stealing what little left if this economy bunch a users .
-
I know that I’m not as brilliant as you are…….
………..but my stupid common sense tells me that, since the plant fell under the jurisdiction of the BWA, their relevant experts would have used the sampling results as a basis to introduce precautionary measures, “proactively” continued the sample testing and monitoring the plant and its environs as time goes by, while making attempts to provide for all possible contingencies (e.g an increase in sewage)………..
………..rather than being reactionary as is the current situation.
In other words, the sample testing and other pre-plant initiatives provided a base from which monitoring the plant, sewage etc could have progressively taken place over random periods of time.
Then again…….I’m not a sewage plant expert and not much sense is expected from someone that does not know the difference between the stock market and the economy.
Since you read the IADB loan contract and associated documents and you’re more knowlegable about sewage plants and environmental issues than I am……….. I’ll have to accept your opinions as being correct.
-
Just a reminder……. the following you refered to a “my extract,” was taken from the IADB/Ministry of Health document:
“The primary objective of the project is to bring the near-shore waters on the south coast to a bacteriological standard that corresponds to the accepted international standards and to reduce the chemical contamination affecting the reefs, marine life and beaches.”
-
Artax
This issue did not suddenly raise its head.
If you look at the Graeme Hall Report from the Professional Engineer in Florida from 8 years ago, 2010, there was a problem with sewage being pumped into the swamp.
What we see is a progressive deterioration of the situation.
More and more “dirty water” appears on the streets.
The only time I saw it completely disappear was when they “drained the swamp” in late December last year.
When they did that the country got travel advisories from the government of the countries where our tourist market lies.
My area is electrical and electronics.
The neat thing in this area is that the vast majority of problems manifest themselves almost immediately, they don’t linger.
It works or it does not work.
There are some …. an intermittent connection once took me a year to track down because then it was disturbed a good connection resulted and the equipment worked fine.
Here this problem is lingering and deteriorating.
Even the Tide seems to have an effect.
There is something fundamentally wrong with this system.
I have worked enough in construction to know the processes of design, specification, tender, construction, debug, buyoff … the result is always a project completed which satisfies its original objective whatever that may be.
This is not about who is bright or who is not and who can spot the problem …. this is about a catastrophic failure.
The problems cannot hide and, there are too many problems.
…. the amazing thing is that the Oistins to plant half of the input does not seem to have a problem.
The major difference is the half that goes to Bridgetown also has in an output effluent line.
But there are other significant differences but these cannot be described as being unforeseen.
There is something wrong at source, either in the design and specification or the implementation … or both.
Look at the Barak building in Warrens …… a disaster from inception because as far as I can see the engineer did not take into account the cave(s) under it and underdesigned the foundation.
We then had to look for $84 million for the contractor. God only knows how that money was split.
I seem to remember there was a collapse at BS&T motors as well because of a cave. Think a man died.
We are not going anywhere because we have people who are not doing their jobs properly …. and it is costing us big bucks.
The Sewage debacle is an opportunity to expose and hopefully put to rest the utter disaster that has been visited upon us.
Nobody can sweep it under the rug!!
-
I am not trying to shield BWA, it has its problems.
It was given a lemon to keep running, if my gut instinct is right.
-
Sewage/effluent in the streets increasing?
Consistent with continuing failure.
Why not in the half up to Oistins?
-
Progressive failure of the system from Graeme Hall to Hilton …. there will come a time when it will be impossible to operate
Maybe the section from the plant to Hilton will cease to be functional
But that contains the effluent pipe.
No use sending the Oistins – Graeme Hall sewage to the plant unless an outfall from Graeme Hall is built.
I can envisage an alternative and will spend some time researching it … could be a good business opportunity, win/win.
Ror the moment, owning a sewage business with trucks to remove it will in the forseeable future be a goldmine … if it has not happened already!!
Wonder if the GOB will get into the business too … if members haven’t done so already!!
-
My geologist buddy is telling me injecting sewage into the limestone is “Nuts”!!
It will get to the sea!!
However, it could be put in empty pockets in the sedimentary rocks from which oil has been extracted!!
Don’t know if oil was extracted wherever they are drilling the 300 foot well.
The British Union Oil Company did have leases to drill all over Barbados 100 years ago.
My guess is that while the 300 feet is probably deeper than the basal contours it won’t be close to the depths from which oil is extracted.+++++++++++++++++++
I seeing video on the net suggesting wells not working … overflowing
Anyone seen that?
The blogmaster invites you to join the discussion.