Nelson statue on Broad Street defaced on the eve of Independence Day.

Some of my more literate readers will recognize that I have borrowed the title of today’s column from the BBC comedy show of the 1960’s that satirized the week’s developments and news stories. I do not at all possess the satirical or comedic talents of the BBC’s scriptwriters, but some events of last week do merit further exposition. Moreover, with the radio talk shows on a self-enforced break so as to take advantage of the lucrative pre-Christmas commercial offerings, I suppose that people will do a lot more reading of the newspapers and the blogs to keep themselves abreast of local current affairs.

One of the highlights of the week was the public anticipation of the decision of the Fair Trading Commission [FTC] on the legal validity of the SOL/BNTCL merger as proposed. Since I currently have the honour of chairing that institution, I paid especial attention to the populist public discourse on the matter. What struck me most about that phenomenon was the seeming consensus among those who aired their views publicly that the merger should not eventuate into approval by the FTC.

So much so that when one newspaper suggested, even before the decision was published, that the sale had been approved, it provoked comments that I consider defamatory of myself from one source, clearly without the slightest clue as to the law relating to fair competition, that “integrity needed to be returned to the Commission” while making mention of the last two years, the period that coincides precisely with my tenure as Chairman. I have accordingly referred the matter to my legal advisors and will say no more on that for now. His was clearly a purely partisan view, based wholly on the perceived sentiments of those to with which he may be politically aligned.

There seems for some reason to have been a general public anticipation that the sale would be approved or maybe it was the case that there had been some misleading leak of the Commission’s deliberations, since another section of the press, not the Barbados Advocate, also boldly suggested in its Tuesday edition that the “FTC [was] set to okay the BNTCL sale.” On the subsequent publication of the decision to the contrary, that section of the press, to my best recollection, did not even deign to concede the inaccuracy of its Tuesday item. Ah, well.

It is clear, and perhaps understandable, that some members of the public perceived the issue as a partisan political matter. If approved, a victory for the DLP, if not approved, a regrettable loss. This is indeed a pity, but par for the course in Barbados, especially at the current time when much is viewed through partisan lens. I am pleased to relate that both the technical staff involved and the members of the Board of the Commission dealt with the matter judiciously as one of applying the relevant law and economic theory of fair competition to the proposed agreement between the parties and took all relevant admissible evidence into account.

A work of art

Another divisive event that took place during the week was the re-decoration (I put it no higher or lower than that) on the eve of the observance of our 51st anniversary of Independence of the statue of Lord Nelson in Heroes’ Square in the national colours. It seems clear that the occasion was chosen with some care, to highlight no doubt, the incongruity of the substance of the next day’s celebration with the prominence of the Nelson statue in the equivalent of the national pantheon.

In this context, public reaction again varied, though not necessarily on partisan political lines this time. Rather, it lay in the unstated but nearly palpable distinction among those who wondered how we would appear to others if we were to permit the destruction of national monuments with impunity and who therefore appealed for condign punishment for the culprit(s); those who view Nelson as some totem of the whitish Barbadian and for whom his removal would be anathema; those who consider the statue to be a blot on our current national ethos undeserving of such geographical prominence; and perhaps those who do not consider the current placement of the statue to be even worthy of contemporary discussion.

Officialdom, of course acutely sensitive to the majority public opinion at this time, came down safely on the side of law and order and cowered under the promise of a national conversation on the matter; as if these ever result in anything other than an intermittent resumption of the debate every six months or more. Whither, one may ask, the “national debate” on formal constitutional republican status for Barbados? Whither the “national debate” on the execution of the death penalty? Whither the national debate on corporal punishment in schools?” All kicked down the road until the next time with a promise of an imminent national discourse. Given our cultural penchant for talking over doing however, [with of course the exception of the Nelson decorator(s)], it may be just as well.

Of course, the apt democratic mode of resolution would be to refer the matter to a plebiscite but, given the unpredictability of these and the natural fear of a governing administration to have any substantive indication of being out of step with its electorate, this seems most unlikely.

As if this were not sufficiently heady, a local historian managed to introduce another intriguing angle to the entire debate. According to Dr Karl Watson or, at least, the newspaper headline, “Nelson was not pro-slavery”, a proposition not at all proven in the text of the published article that appears to suggest rather that the Admiral acted merely as a tax collector on the island for the British government and points to no utterance of his or other evidence that might support the assertion in the headline. More debate is expected.

228 responses to “The Jeff Cumberbatch Column – What was the week that was…”


  1. America was built long before WWII!!

    It was America’s wealth and productive capacity that beat the Nazis.

    The scientists were the spoils of victory.

  2. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    The problem as I see it started when a small gang of dumb minorities like bizzy tried to change and relabel the majority black population, somehow getting it in their heads that to preserve their imaginary whiteness…they gotta change and relabel blackness and push Black history out of the minds of the majority Black population of African descent…..

    They should maybe instead as this writer is hinting….get rid of their imaginary whiteness and gain some peace of mind….acknowledge that there are decidedly Blacker than any of them would like to admit.

    “There are class and status tensions between rich and unmoneyed white Barbadians which are rarely discussed or recognised. Most importantly, there is actually a clear identification for the vast majority of white Barbadians I have come across with the idea of Barbados as the nation with which they identify now and always — those who could not emigrated at independence to Australia etc.

    This involves for a growing number a recognition of their own cultural blackness (matched by a new post-independence remembering of people of colour who were ancestors, who two generations ago would have been energetically forgotten!). I think the room is open for a renegotiation of ‘whiteness’ in Barbados, and that here and there we can see the process is advancing. But Black Barbadians will have to participate in this process.”


  3. John December 3, 2017 at 5:16 PM #

    At the turn of the 20th century Argentina and the US were level pegging. The take off started after the European invasion in the 1920s.


  4. Bernar4.44p
    Took a tad ‘o liberty and changed a word.The school song in verse 2 is:-

    Foes in plenty we shall meet,
    Hearts courageous scorn defeat,
    So we press with eager feet,
    Up and on,Up and on,
    Ever upward to the fight,ever upward to the light,
    Ever true to God and right,
    Up and on,up and on.
    The chorus in my time at Weymouth was:
    Up boys,truest fame lies in high endeavour,
    Play the game,keep the flame burning brightly ever,
    Repeat.
    This robust school song would wake the dead moreso whenever and wherever the old scholars get together for a pissup.

  5. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    The crime was committed when the minority demons tried to use BU….to push their whitening of the Black majority agenda….

    .,,,..no one cares if they gotta take anti depressants daily to continue pretending they are all white. …because they are unable to cope otherwise.

    .,……but do not push ya nastiness of pretend whiteness onto a whole nation of African descendants.

    The ancestors will rise up.


  6. @Peter

    Note that John has up to this minute not responded to a direct question on Drayton’s perspective. Only on BU, experts in their minds.


  7. David December 3, 2017 at 5:54 PM #
    @Peter
    Note that John has up to this minute not responded to a direct question on Drayton’s perspective. Only on BU, experts in their minds.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I went to school when Richard Drayton was there.

    I remember him, think he was Kathleen Drayton’s son.

    My response is simple but don’t know why you need me to tell you this when it is so obvious!!!

    He is a member of academia and won’t be far off other academics.

    That’s just how it is, in any field.

    Academia, through Hilary McD. has already spoken.

    I have presented facts in response.

    If you can present any fact he has posted that is in anyway significantly different from Hilary Mc.D. then put it forward and ask for my comment on that specific fact.

    I just gave the article a cursory glance and I doubt you will find anything different, but, it was just a cursory glance.


  8. ” One of the obstacles all these abolitionists had to overcome was the influence of Nelson, who was what you would now call, without hesitation, a white supremacist.

    While many around him were denouncing slavery, Nelson was vigorously defending it.

    Britain’s best known naval hero – so idealised that after his death in 1805 he was compared to no less than “the God who made him” – used his seat in the House of Lords and his position of huge influence to perpetuate the tyranny, serial rape and exploitation organised by West Indian planters, some of whom he counted among his closest friends.”


  9. Hal Austin December 3, 2017 at 5:28 PM #
    John December 3, 2017 at 5:16 PM #
    At the turn of the 20th century Argentina and the US were level pegging. The take off started after the European invasion in the 1920s.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    By the 1920’s Carnegie, Rockefeller, Ford and Van der Bilt had made their mark.

    I have never heard of Argentinian equivalents.

    By the 1920’s, America had entered the WWI and determined the outcome.

    I doubt if any Argentinian soldiers served but perhaps they did.

    You are right about the European invasion but you are out by about 70 years.

    Irish immigrants flooded to America after the Irish Potato famine of the 1840’s.

    Germans also came in droves.


  10. Well David, there you have it. Drayton’s discourse is unanswerable by these fools. While they will get blue vex whenever Hillary Beckles opens his mouth and cuss him and his entire bloodline, when Drayton says the same things they are mute because, after all, “he was Kathleen Drayton’s son.” I think I may have been at HC when Richard Drayton was there as well, but I have no recollection of him. He is 8 years younger than John and I, so might have been in lower first when we were in upper sixth.


  11. The Chinese also came to America in droves in that period to build the Transcontinental Railroad, starting from the West Coast.


  12. If two academics are saying the same thing there is only need to answer the single thing being said!

    I am not saying it is a waste of time answering Richard Drayton, just that it is completely unnecessary unless he presents something different!!

    Obviously, he hasn’t!!

  13. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    Cant respond, their grand plan backfired…and the truth prevailed.

    They walk in darkness and cannot see the light…they refuse to acknowledge reality.


  14. David, you said “experts in their own mind” but really it’s more like ‘turgid egos in their hands’.

    Let’s give John his due that he offers valid details from his research and surely over the many years he surely has become as adept on the subject matter as any of the historians in academia. But he, as we have seen here like all the very intelligent folks (BT, DrGP, Pacha and young ones like Artax to name 4) allows his ego sometimes to get in the way of the scholarly posts.

    In practical terms the grave dissonance with Drayton’s post and what has been written here by @John in particular is the interpretation of that Nelson remark about “the damnable Wilberforce”.

    Our ‘hero’s (really Hal) interprets that as a refutation of Wilberforce views pre-abolition and asserted strongly that in fact it framed Nelson as damning those earlier beliefs that slavery was a good thing. Ipso, he asserted Nelson was NOT really pro slavery!

    But alas now those like myself who never sourced the details John offered are informed that Nelson’s remarks were written to a plantation owner and slave master!

    How on God’s green earth would he Lord Nelson proffer John’s interpretation to such an individual…how could our heroic Bajan scholar beguile us with those wonderful details but attempt to bamboozle us with such specious, unintelligble and downright ridiculous interpretations.

    I hope that all here can readily accept that history can ONLY be about accurate and reasonable interpretations of the FACTS.

    I accepted John for his scholarship and God given mental acuity. I am absolutely less impressed by his insidious attempts to twist those facts to suit his purposes…and he throttles about the Bussa legend created to generate greater pride…yet he builds his pride on such weak lies!

    Anyhow, good stuff Mr Blogmaster…your site is awesome!

    This particular blog is a great exercise for any current 6th former. Lots of meat from which they can appreciate the realities of what scholarship does to our egos!

    “Fools in plenty we shall meet”, indeed! Good one there @Gabriel.


  15. But alas now those like myself who never sourced the details John offered are informed that Nelson’s remarks were written to a plantation owner and slave master!
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I always heard the remarks were made in the House of Lords!!!

    The reason Nelson appeared as a Lord was because he earned the title “Baron of the Nile” after his victory at the Battle of the Nile on 1st August 1798, seven year before Trafalgar.

    On that night he and his captains destroyed the French fleet at Aboukir bay trapping Napoleon in Africa without supplies and thus saving Africa from French invasion!!

    Napoleon had to leave/desert his army and steal back to France.


  16. @de pedantic Dribbler at 7:32 PM wrote
    “Our ‘hero’s (really Hal) interprets that as a refutation of Wilberforce views pre-abolition and asserted strongly that in fact it framed Nelson as damning those earlier beliefs that slavery was a good thing. Ipso, he asserted Nelson was NOT really pro slavery!”

    I have stopped reading all of what John writes and most of what Hal does, so I wasn’t aware that they had attempted to distort the historical record to this extent. For your own info here is the quote more in context:
    “…I have ever been and shall die a firm friend to our colonial system. I was bred as you know in the good old school, and taught to appreciate the value of our West India possessions, and neither in the field nor in the senate, shall their interest be infringed while I have an arm to fight in their defence or a tongue to launch my voice against the damnable and cursed doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies, and I hope my berth in heaven will be as exalted as his, who would certainly cause the murder of all our friends and fellow subjects in the colonies; however, I did not intend to go so far, but the sentiments are full in my heart, and the pen would write them. .—I shall as soon as I have done with this fleet go to England for a few months, and if you have time and inclination, I shall be glad to hear from you; we are near thirty years acquainted, and I am as ever, &c”

    So you can clearly see that Nelson is dedicated to the preservation of slavery on the military “field” and the political “senate” as long as he has “an arm to fight […] or a tongue to launch my voice…”

    John I am sure understands this perfectly well but chooses to lie about it. Hal should understand it unless he is powerful stupid, so I believe he has chosen to lie about it also.

  17. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    No power involved….just stupid.

  18. Bernard Codrington Avatar
    Bernard Codrington

    @ d p D at 7:32 PM

    ”Lots of meat from which they can appreciate the realities of what scholarship does to our egos”

    I love that bit of advice to would be scholars. Good scholars are humble. It is the knowledge that one can be wrong, that makes scholars have their work peer reviewed and critiqued. Facts/data/ information do not speak for themselves. Most scholars start with a hunch or hypothesis and look for the data to support the hypothesis. Very often they overlook data that may disprove the hypothesis.

    What has been at play here is that persons take up hard positions and look for the flimsiest of evidence to support their positions. They invest their ego in their positions. They do not want to be wrong.

    Very often the issue metamorphoses into an issue other than the original issue,simply because it is one which the antagonists think they can win.
    The original issue was that of defacing public property and it metamorphosed into whether Nelson was a racist, whether he was pro- abolition,to whether he was pro- slavery.

    Does anyone remember what the battle of Trafalgar was about? Was it about the abolition of slavery ? Or was it about the abolition of the slave trade? Was it about protection of and control of colonies? What was Nelson honoured for? He certainly was not honoured for being a racist what ever that is? The race issue was used to justify and enforce the social distribution of national production. And that came later.

    I certainly learned a lot. As you have hinted .It is unbelievable that an education system could produce this level of public debate.


  19. @Gabriel December 3, 2017 at 9:47 AM #

    “The headline in today’s Sunday Sun deals a failing grade to the Ministry of Culture generally but most would see it as disappointing and a slap in the face of the Minister and the PS.The International Fund for Cultural Diversity registered its concern with how the funds were to be applied and the Fatted Calf approach still seem to be the ‘modus operandi’ of this DLP government,since part of the proceeds US$94,375.00 would have gone to paying five consultants at a per diem rate of US$862.50 with “the remainder for services and other costs”
    ………………………………………………….

    These morons are so stupid……….they really submitted a bid for UNESCO funds and were claiming consultancy fees of US$862.50 per diemfor five yardfowls?…………

    Why, all the money would have been given away to those who are still feeding at the trough and none would have set aside for the intended project. Did they think that UNESCO funds are a free for all like Barbados taxpayers money where they continue to do as they like with?

    I used to have to put in bids for projects in a previous job and those forms are so detailed it would be impossible to put fat in any bid. The process is so transparent!

    What ignoramuses!


  20. NELSON IS A HERO FOR A LOT OF BAJAN MEN, lol

    “can only say that no woman can feel the least attention from a husband more than I do,” Frances Nelson wrote to a friend in 1801.

    By then, her celebrated husband—England’s greatest naval hero—was openly cohabiting with another woman, and a married one at that. Most everyone in English high society seemed to know about the affair that Horatio Nelson, Vice Admiral of the British Fleet, was carrying on with Emma, Lady Hamilton, a striking beauty—and the wife of one of his closest friends, Sir William Hamilton.


  21. @Bernard Codrington at 8:47 PM
    “Does anyone remember what the battle of Trafalgar was about?”

    The Battle of Trafalgar was fought by the British fleet against the combined French and Spanish fleet to thwart Napoleon’s ambition to invade the British isles. Didn’t you already know this??


  22. “…I have ever been and shall die a firm friend to our colonial system. I was bred as you know in the good old school, and taught to appreciate the value of our West India possessions, and neither in the field nor in the senate, shall their interest be infringed while I have an arm to fight in their defence or a tongue to launch my voice against the damnable and cursed doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies, and I hope my berth in heaven will be as exalted as his, who would certainly cause the murder of all our friends and fellow subjects in the colonies; however, I did not intend to go so far, but the sentiments are full in my heart, and the pen would write them. .—I shall as soon as I have done with this fleet go to England for a few months, and if you have time and inclination, I shall be glad to hear from you; we are near thirty years acquainted, and I am as ever, &c”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Wilberforce in Nelson’s time fought for the abolition of the slave trade .. fact.

    Wilberforce was against the abolition of slavery up to 1807 … fact!

    Nelson died in 1805 … fact

    Wilberforce was pro slavery but anti slave trade … fact!!!!

    Nelson was thus anti slavery and pro slave trade.

    We know that in Barbados the slave population was self sustaining and growing at the time so the abolition of the slave trade did not matter.

    Nelson’s comments could thus not have been referring to Barbados.

    So we have to look to other colonies where it was important to keep slaves arriving to try to understand what Nelson meant.

    Except, that is the job of the academics which they have failed to do!!

    On top of that they use the statement to claim Nelson was pro slavery when the opposite is provable from the words of Wilberforce himself!!!!!

    They are not only derelict in their duty but they are also untruthful!!

    Those unable to think for themselves and research the truth are thus made to look like gullible fools.

    It makes no sense to second guess our ancestors.

    However, in the case of Erroll Barrow who lived and moved in our time and whose foibles are apparent, a decision to remove his statue is straightforward.


  23. Sometimes you have to look at what is not there to understand what is!!


  24. @Bernard Codrington at 8:47 PM

    Richard Drayton is a very talented a capable scholar, nothing at all like Karl Watson. Compare Drayton’s peer reviewed work to Watson’s. Drayton’s brief though thorough exegesis of the historical evidence above leads inexorably to his conclusion: “it is absurd that 50 years after independence, a statue of Nelson stands in Heroes Square outside the House of Assembly and Senate of Barbados. As with Rhodes in Oxford, the case for moving Nelson to the museum is clear.”

    That people like John and Richard Hoad and Karl Watson have fought so hard to deny the obvious is an indictment of both their good sense and their good nature… they are revealed to be either stupid, racist, or some combination of the two. Drayton is much more kind than I am, he simply implies that they are “absurd.”


  25. I know I shouldn’t read what John emits, but this has to be some sort of international record in absurdity: “Nelson was thus anti slavery and pro slave trade.”
    QED


  26. Hants December 3, 2017 at 9:01 PM #
    NELSON IS A HERO FOR A LOT OF BAJAN MEN, lol
    “can only say that no woman can feel the least attention from a husband more than I do,” Frances Nelson wrote to a friend in 1801.
    By then, her celebrated husband—England’s greatest naval hero—was openly cohabiting with another woman, and a married one at that. Most everyone in English high society seemed to know about the affair that Horatio Nelson, Vice Admiral of the British Fleet, was carrying on with Emma, Lady Hamilton, a striking beauty—and the wife of one of his closest friends, Sir William Hamilton.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Ahhhhh, Hants, you have solved the dilemma.

    Wilberforce was not only concerned with the slave trade!!!!

    That was only one aspect to his life in the time of Nelson.

    What he was also concerned about were sin and morals.

    “His Evangelicalism, however, made him equally concerned with other types of sin, and he worked hard to get George III to issue a royal proclamation condemning ‘excessive drinking, blasphemy, profane swearing and cursing, lewdness, profanation of the Lord’s Day, or other dissolute, immoral or disorderly practices’.
    Wilberforce then formed a Society for Carrying into Effect His Majesty’s Proclamation against Vice and Immorality, which at one point succeeded in sending a bookseller to jail who had published Thomas Paine’s attack on traditional religion, ‘The Age of Reason’.
    Despite his challenge to something as embedded in the British imperial economy as the slave trade, Wilberforce was in many ways a conventional, cautious man of his class and time. He wrote to one woman friend to urge her to adhere to ‘the submissive, obedient demeanour which certainly should distinguish the wife towards her husband’.
    He was uneasy about increasing the tiny percentage of British men entitled to vote. Almost everything about the French Revolution appalled him, and he was horrified by anything resembling a union.
    Paradoxically, Wilberforce’s right-wing position on such issues probably made him a more effective voice for abolition in a parliament whose members were mostly well-to-do landowners who wanted little change in the status quo. “


  27. The point is simple.

    You can’t rely on a few words spoken over 200 years ago to read a mans mind!!


  28. That is as about as absurd as it gets!!


  29. Why did Scalia consider that he was the expert at thinking 1776.The reading into the minds of long dead people to try to foist their long dead ideas on 21st century USA is about as stupid as one can get.The militia referred to in the 18th century is just that.Armed soldiers.It cannot be Armed Citizens.America is still the Wild West of Wild Bill Hickok for scalians and the red necks which make up the bulk of NRA membership.The Alt-rt.


  30. Wilberforce was trying to impose a strict moral code in England and the colonies which Nelson knew would cause mayhem!!

    Perhaps that is why he refers to the allies of Wilberforce as hypocritical.


  31. Prodigal
    One of the reasons advanced by our brothers in the EC is the lack of expertise in some territories such that they cannot cope with the requirements of the loan documents.I was of the opinion that our civil servants at PS level were so well trained that these documents would have been submittted with all the precision and responses needed to pass muster.Hairy fairy, nebulous, vague responses do not belong to a present day Barbados Civil Service.


  32. Wilberforce’s life in Parliament was not all about the slave trade.

    He was a politician.

    He was involved in several, countless perhaps debates and votes that had nothing to do with slavery.

    What you will find is that Nelson’s reference to that “damnable doctrine” of Wilberforce has absolutely nothing to do with slavery!!

    I’ll give you a clue, figure out who his hypocritical allies were and you will discover just how totally out to sea our historians are!!

    I will give you another clue, they were his fellow party members!!

    The flaw is the assumption that Wilberforce only dealt with the slave trade when in fact he was a politician and was involved in all sorts of accommodations and compromises in other matters!!

    This gets funnier and funnier!!


  33. @Dr.Simon

    Thanks for the link. What is striking is the structure that was put around soliciting feedback from citizens. It is good that this has come from another place and not BU because some in here would want to make it out that BU members are crazy.

    Here is a pertinent extract:

    Despite arguing that the five monuments pieces be removed, the letter does not insist that they be destroyed. Instead, it proposes that they be placed in contexts that make their political meanings clear and where education about related issues can occur.

    “We see the outcome of the Commission not as destroying heritage, let alone the purported erasure of history, but as the beginning of an exciting new set of possibilities for public art and museums in New York City, one finally devoted to an inclusive and reparative vision of the difficult histories of settler colonialism and the indigenous peoples of this land,” the letter reads.


  34. Our ‘hero’s (really Hal) interprets that as a refutation of Wilberforce views pre-abolition and asserted strongly that in fact it framed Nelson as damning those earlier beliefs that slavery was a good thing. Ipso, he asserted Nelson was NOT really pro slavery!

    Discourse .can be a good thing, but misrepresentation .. is something else. I have not said, or implied any such thing. Let us roll back. The Nelson column was vandalised, my intervention in the debate centred on one thing|: the criminality of the act, even low level. I have no .views about the history of Nelson, his presence in Barbados, or the Battle of Trafalgar.
    My only other intervention was when a senior politician tried to trivialise and tolerate acts of violence by claiming that her Irish ancestors dealt w ith such issues.
    I warned that public figures .must be careful with their langua.ge (misinterpreted by someone as meaning grammar) since the Irish Catholics (IRA) and Protestants (Ulster .. Scots) have a history of violence.
    To demonstrate .. my point, I referenced other statues: Walcott, .., Barrow, Sobers, Bussa.
    Now . I have been dragged .in to a discussion about whether or not Nelson supported slavery. I said no such thing and have no views on the matter.

    .


  35. It it unlawful when French farmers block the Champs-Elysees?

    What is civil disobediance we ask again!

  36. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    PLT…dont read what John emits, it’s pure unadulterated nonsense, we already understand the evil, greedy minds of dead criminal racist enslavers and white supremacists, there should be no public honoring of their vile statues and monuments….and no allowing them to control the descendants of Africans from beyond their cold dark graves.

    ….. their shitstained statues should be placed in museums for the educational purposes of future generations only….as we have been saying all along….and not as visual aids for present day racists to glorify, honor and self identify….we cant make it clearer than that.

    Remove the blighted and cursed nelson statue.

  37. Well Well & Cut N' Paste At Your Service Avatar
    Well Well & Cut N’ Paste At Your Service

    In other words…remove all evil from public view, stop allowing evil dead people to define the lives of present and future generations or their financial present and future wealth and earnings.

    Whoever threw paint on nelson’s ugly statue, actually did the island’s majority population a huge favor and should be given an award.


  38. It it unlawful when French farmers block the Champs-Elysees?

    Yes.


  39. @Hal, it is comparatively early so I will presume you are yet to be awakened with your cuppa of tea or coffee…surely you cannot be fully conscious to respond as above at 6:19.

    The quoted text says NOTHING about YOU being the speaker , so your entire post is a nonsequitar…a maze created by your incredible reasoning. What an obzocky post.

    This is minor stuff so I don’t expect you to reread the original to correct so….to be clear…

    …. YOU called John a ‘hero’ in a previous post. Maybe it was facetious, however, that is the reference causing the ‘really Hal’.

    Did the misplaced apostrophe conceal that rather simple matter!

    I completely agree with you that “Discourse .can be a good thing, but misrepresentation .. is something else”.

    Thus, I wonder sometimes if you are here to cause disruption as some sort of devil’s advocate…it kerfulles me that a long time journo and editor could make some of the ‘misrepresentations’ or unintelligible perspectives that I have seen evidenced here from you. Alas.


  40. de pedantic Dribbler December 4, 2017 at 7:20 AM #

    I can assure you. I did not get out .of bed .until 9.am. There is a vast time difference. About calling .John a hero, that .was specific to his finding his mother’s school curriculum.
    .


  41. No one has figured out the slight of hand yet.

    So, lets examine the only thing David and PLT can highlight in the article to prove that Nelson was pro slavery.

    I think I have already shown how illogical the words are when used in support of the thesis that Nelson was pro slavery!!

    Here are Richard Drayton’s own words.

    “That is not to say that he was not politically pro-slavery, which in our translation would be that he certainly took white supremacy as a natural order to be defended.

    And posthumously he did play a part in anti-abolition politics: in 1807, at the climax of the debates in Britain about abolishing the trade, a private letter Nelson had sent to the Jamaican planter magnate Simon Taylor in June 1805 was republished by Cobbett in which Nelson had denounced “the damnable and cursed doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies”.

    Of course, an informed cynical reader might argue that the point of the letter was to suck up to Taylor in the hope of a nice fat cash gift from West Indian planters for Nelson having scared off the French navy, the question of slavery itself was not central to the document.”

    Richard Drayton begins with a negative!!! “That is not to say that he was not politically pro-slavery”

    The assumption we simpletons are to make is Nelson was pro slavery and Richard Drayton goes even further to say he took white supremacy (new buzzword) as a natural order to be defended!!

    Richard Drayton then quotes the “damnable doctrine” words of Nelson, words I have heard from the late 90’s when the debate started!!

    He correctly attributes the source of the document, Corbett.

    In the 90’s the source given by our historians was a speech in the House of Lords.

    Then Richard Drayton proceeds to shoot himself in the foot but he waits to the end of the paragraph to do it!!

    He says “”the question of slavery itself was not central to the document!!!!””

    So, why even put the paragraph into the submission!!

    Nelson’s attack on Wilberforce and his “hypocritical allies” has nothing to do with slavery!!

    From the horse’s mouth!!

    This has been central for two decades to the argument of the historians about how horrible Nelson was!!

    Complete jokers, a waste of time!!

    The difference between Bobby Morris and these joker historians is that the matter is one of Bread and Butter.

    Peer reviewed means in this case, they think the same, neither one wants to disturb the natural order.

    Bobby Morris however has another source of employment so it doesn’t matter to him if he tells the truth and gets ignored!!


  42. So, who were Wilberforce’s “hypocritical allies”?

    His good friend William Pitt the younger, PM of England was one.

    However, Nelson did not mention the PM.

    Nelson may have been radical but he believed in the “natural order”!!

    Pitt the younger was PM of England from 1783 to 1801 then again from 1804 to 1806 when Nelson wrote the letter (1805).

    His time in office was dominated by the American and French Revolutionary wars and then the Napoleonic War.

    He was tested like no other British PM, Winston Churchill excepted.

    He was politically astute and looked for accommodations and compromises.

    In 1794 at the beginning of the French Revolutionary War he suspended he Habeas Corpus Act.

    He was accused of hypocrisy.

    Between 1794 and 1801 there were other instances of unpopular decisions.

    http://spartacus-educational.com/PRpitt.htm

    Wilberforce supported him.

    Pitt faced with the expense of supporting war and increasing budget deficits attempted to seek peace with France, anathema to Nelson.

    “Britain’s continuing financial difficulties convinced Pitt to seek peace with France. These peace proposals were rejected by the French in May 1796 and William Pitt once again had to introduce new taxes. This included duties on horses and tobacco. The following year Pitt introduced additional taxes on tea, sugar and spirits. Even so, by November 1797, Britain had a budget deficit of £22 million. On several occasions Pitt was in physical danger from angry mobs and he had to be constantly protected by an armed guard. Pitt’s health began to deteriorate and newspapers began reporting that the prime minister had suffered a mental breakdown and was insane. Pitt responded by passing new laws that enabled the government to suppress and regulate newspapers.”

    Nelson is quoted as saying “To serve my King and destroy the French”.

    “To obey orders is all perfection. To serve my King and destroy the French, I consider as the great order of all, from which little ones spring; and if one of these militate against it (for who can tell exactly at a distance), I go back and obey the great order and object, to down – down with the damned French villains! My blood boils at the name of a Frenchman! Down, down with the French! … is my constant prayer. ”

    The “damnable doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies” has absolutely nothing to do with slavery!!

    You notice Nelson did not say to serve Parliament and the politicians!!

    Nelson, like us, figured out politicians are the highest form of hypocrites!!


  43. The issue here is not about whether the act is unlawful it is that watershed moments throughout history were precipitated by acts of civil disobedience. You may have the last word.


  44. @ Hal Austin at 7:03 AM

    There is a world of difference between unlawful and unjust. It was unlawful for your ancestors to try to escape from their master’s property, but it was not unjust.


  45. So … is it unlawful for a bunch of joker historians to mislead a bunch of gullible fools?

    Of course not, but it is unjust!!

    … actually …. it may be just!!!!

    “Wisdom is too high for a fool”!!

    Look it up!!


  46. @Hal, I believe I was too respectful above with my ‘maybe it was facetious. I fully read and understood the original context of your ‘hero’s comment. You felt empowered to recap your unintelligible heroic accolade so let me more precisely say: ‘CLEARLY , you were being facetiously ridiculous’

    Only a Bajan expat experienced journo who went to St. Giles named Hal Austin (you get my facetiouness, right 😂) would deem John’s retrival of his ancestor’s school records as worthy of such acclaim. Bro, I rest my case of your obzocky inferences.

    @John, are you hell bent on just being ridiculously absurd? I was previously at a lost why your school mate dissed you here in recent times by bypassing your utterances …But no longer.

    Do you really think all others here are imbeciles. Your 7:37 is absurd BS in its thrust or as you would say “illogical”.

    This is simple, pellucid English.

    Drayton wrote that “posthumously he [Nelson] did play a part in anti-abolition politics: in 1807, at the climax of the debates in Britain about abolishing the trade, a private letter Nelson had sent to the Jamaican planter magnate Simon Taylor in June 1805 was republished by Cobbett in which Nelson had denounced “the damnable and cursed doctrine of Wilberforce and his hypocritical allies”..

    That has one principal intent, namely to show how Nelson reached out beyond his grave to colour or have some influence on the bothersome debate about slavery.

    Drayton’s further statement that “the question of slavery itself was not central to the document!!!!” is quite pellucid to anyone without a ridiculous bias.

    It refers to the ORIGINAL context of the letter or document. A practical interpretation simply renders that Drayton is clear in highligthing that Lord Nelson was NOT debating with his friend slavery as the central theme of that letter.

    Rather he suggests Nelson was schmoozing to his friend’s as a benefactor and he certainly discussed Wilberforce and thus issues of slavery, but slavery ITSELF was NOT the central theme of the correspondece.

    That you would read the entire section (see PLTs post) and offer this disingenuous diatribe just confounds me.

    Your level of renderings here continue to descend to a pitiful level…I can’t call you racist as I don’t know you ; you are obviously not stupid so I can only assume you have a well crafted agenda to dissemble and mislead under a guise of deep research.

    Away with your torturous bias…as they say: just the facts. Stick with your accurate renderings from archival source material…your scholarship ends there, obviously.

    Your mind sir, is bent beyond correction. Sad.


  47. Don’t Be Envious of Evil Men

    1Be not thou envious against evil men, neither desire to be with them.
    2For their heart studieth destruction, and their lips talk of mischief.
    3Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:
    4And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
    5A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.
    6For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellers there is safety.
    7Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.
    8He that deviseth to do evil shall be called a mischievous person.
    9The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men.
    10If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
    11If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
    12If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
    13My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste:
    14So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.
    15Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place:
    16For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.
    17Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
    18Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
    19Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked;
    20For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
    21My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
    22For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?
    Further Sayings of the Wise
    23These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
    24He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
    25But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
    26Every man shall kiss his lips that giveth a right answer.
    27Prepare thy work without, and make it fit for thyself in the field; and afterwards build thine house.
    28Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.
    29Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
    30I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
    31And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.
    32Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction.
    33Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:
    34So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth; and thy want as an armed man.


  48. I found this purely by accident a few years ago.

    I heard an old labourer from the plantation use the one liner “Wisdom is too high for a fool” so looked it up!!


  49. Nelson had far more weighty matters on his mind than slavery!!

    War does that, particularly if you are the only person who can win it!!

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