Correction
Name is Damson Stoute
@ David
You are correct about the fairness of the particular case and the need for a redress of the situation.
But Bushie saw Lawson’s contribution at a completely different level. Basically he is echoing the words of a famous writer who said ….’in the end, all is vanity’
…or as Bushie would say, Lotta shiite… 🙂
Lawson did not even give the worse case scenario.
The hubby did not have to die, just take ill (as we all do in old age).
Between the tax man, grocery, doctors, druggists, hospital, care-givers and parasitic family members, he and his wife will be broke in no time….after lifetime efforts to secure a good home.
So while this is an important issue, we need to see that ultimately, there must be bigger issues that are much more significant and permanent, than the basic necessities of life….
This is why the ‘poor’ are blessed, – they may not be distracted with the ‘lotta shiite….and may well be able to focus on the REAL, longer-term issues of living….
Of course nowadays, thanks to TV, marketing power, political promises, and ignorance of the REAL purpose of life, the brass bowl poor now spend all their efforts in albino-centric pursuits which only serves to make them angry, frustrated, bitter and resentful…
So the Rich are ff’ed… as Lawson explained,
…as are the poor…
and so…there is no hope.
Instead of delving into the facts of the matter people are alleging that Bank employees are stealing from depositors. Employee theft is a fact of life whether they are working at Banks or other places, they steal office supplies or other material depending on where they work, they even steal toilet paper. Yours truly knows of a mason who built his home by taking home two bricks a day from his various work sites. Banks compensate their customers if an employee is found to have stolen from them no “buts’ about it so those who claim to have knowledge of employee theft from the various Financial Institutions in the island should report it to the Head Offices in those locations. Any allegation of theft will be investigated.
Here is what we know, the client tried to grow her business by borrowing funds from the Bank using her home as collateral. The business failed and she was unable to repay the Bank, talk about items being held in the Port is immaterial and to use Bajan vernacular “a load of shite”. Business failures are also a fact of life many people lose their life’s savings because of business failures, it happens more often than we think in Barbados and the wider world but everyone doesn’t have a sympathetic media to complain about their predicament. The Bank tried to realize on its security and all the bleeding hearts complain about the big bad Bank, if the Bank had advanced an unsecured loan the talk would be about those ‘fools” at the Bank who are left hanging. A lot of wunna driving cars with a “Bill of Sale” (at least that was what it was called back in the day) don’t repay that loan and see if your next mode of transportation isn’t a ZR or by foot.
That’s also life.
@Sargeant
Again you are painting this issue as black and white. There is a wide interpretation in the use of your words “business failed”. Bush Tea already explained how an insensitive Bank (credit officer) could have adversely affected her business. A delay in stock clearing through the port, a hit on cashflow based on seasonality etc. We don’t have all the facts!
Maybe so Bush Tea, we have to be pragmatic as well.
@ Sargeant
Like a true NCO, you just follow the script without needing to know the background that commissioned officers tend to consider.
Yours is not to reason why…
When someone starts a business, they enter a symbiotic relationship with a financial institution that presumes that they have each others mutual welfare at heart.
The Bank expects a constant turnover of business that will generate interest, commissions and fees from the business, and the business expects that the bank will be a resource during cash-flow shortages, during cash gluts (with meaningful fixed deposits etc) and a reliable financial advisor (especially with young inexperienced businesses).
You are either VERY naive, or worse, if you cannot see the dangers of predatory elements working within a banking system to prey on vulnerable clients.
For example….
A PERFECTLY viable business, that could have made a handsome profit on a shipment, could become a ‘failed’ business because a line-of-credit or loan needed to clear that shipment is denied or delayed for some ‘technical’ reason …while port charges, customer frustration, reputation for reliability, and such critical liabilities build up…..
…and while a surprisingly ‘in the know’ competitor out of nowhere, is somehow able to offer your customers interim service….
Sometimes you should just shut up…like a good NCO…..
World is Watching…it happened to me in the 90s at the former CIBC branch that is in Rock Dundo, near Cave Hill, I dont know if the dude you are referring to was around then, but it was over 22 years ago , the dude at fraud squad called the person with the standing order and the bank, the money was returned to the account.
Years later in the 2000s, I had not checked the accounts for 2 years, the standing order was supposed to automaticaly stop, mechanisms are in place for that, when I finally checked the account, thousands of dollars had been removed….again CIBC replaced the money.
I spent years working in one of the world’s biggest banks, I know their procedures very well and is very aware that the banks in Barbados are highly infested with thieves..more than normal and much than any other workplace….
…..as we know it because of the large population in the US….those who have the propensity for stealing in banks can tief 5 cents a day from each account for 30 years and become millionaires, I saw accounts missing pennies, multiply that by millions of accounts.
@Bushy
You have a habit of playing to the cheap seats and ignoring facts but I will not budge from my position or “shut up” as you hope. Businesses have “good” and “bad” seasons and most Financial Institutions will work with their clients to bring the loan up to date. The Banks don’t want to go through the realms of paperwork, lost productivity, interaction with lawyers that arises from situations like this, a happy client is good for business as both parties benefit from this “symbiotic” arrangement, the client will spread the news of how her Bank helped her through a stressful period and the Bank will continue to make money with interest charges, service charges and an expanding client base.
@David
Blaming a loan officer is a reach why not blame Port employees or Public servants for failure to clear items why not blame customers for not purchasing enough or for abandoning the business? Seems everyone likes to point the finger at another party rather than face reality.
There are some lessons to be learnt from this case.
Never use one’s home as collateral for your business. Register your business as a separate person/company. When it fails claim bankruptcy like Trump.
The value of a home fluctuates There will be times during its existence when its value will be lower than the loan, borrowed to build, extend or replace it. There will be times when the outstanding loan balance will be less than the value of the house.
Be careful what one adds to a house. Because of the location additions may not add value. Location determines value. There is no point in putting a five bedroom house on 6000 square feet of land in a middle class development.
This intervention is not based on the facts of this particular case. I have no such knowledge nor do I need it.
Sargeant those of us who run businesses on the Rock are acutely aware of how aggressive the Canadian banks especially have been regarding their tightening of credit policy in recent years. Some good and marginal companies have been negativity affected. This we can speech to with certainty.
@Bernard, wow. You spoke the proverbial mouthful. I was, with great difficulty, trying to understand how an individual situation such as this could result in the broadsides from BushTea and to a lesser extent David towards Sargeant’s reasoned remarks on the consumer financial system.
The worthy protagonists appear to throw the entire burden of the problems at the bankers when surely the loanee also was partially at fault.
Incidentally, as you know only too well, at times the home is the last line of collateral for the small, under-capitalized risk taking entrepreneur. It’s bad form to place your house (and family) into a volatile financial cauldron but when chasing that big deal with no willing investors it’s an ‘easy’ ploy. The ‘dangerous impending’ doom is always ‘far away’.
@David, and how is Barbados or the Caribbean unique re “banks tightening credit policies in recent years”. After 2008 average loan clients, small and large businesses in US were decimated by tightening credit.
Folks who did all the right things to manage their operations with the regular ebbs and flows of cash flow problems, invoices paid to their max 30 days sometimes or a bit over but ALWAYS paid, unceremoniously had their credit limits reduced and in some cases lines of credit terminated. It crushed some. And it was totally UNNECESSARY.
Not one of small or mid-size operators were the real cause of the financial debacle but many were doubly screwed. It was painful.
So I read this problem with Ms Riley and shake my head on the ‘grand’ pronouncements made by you and BushTea. Let us and her be absolutely glad that she had a savior to pull her from the fire….some others do and did not.
@Dee Word
Believe what you will, we know what we know.
On Friday, 25 November 2016, Barbados Underground wrote:
>
@David
Loan losses have impacted the Banks bottom line in recent years, one only has to pay attention to their annual reports, no doubt they will be paying close attention to those “marginal’ loans. HO in TO will often dictate policy and put pressure on local employees. Everyone has a job to do and if you fail you are through the door. Businesses in the Caribbean have not fully recovered (if at all) from the effects of the recession, if they don’t have their ducks in order it will be “katie bar the door”
@Sargeant
And this is the point, the foreign banks have elevated credit and risk policies compared to local and regional FI’S because of shareholder expectations ROI etc.
@ David 10: 24 AM
Companies do well during a boom when there is full employment and when there is a market for the good or service being produced.
When ,however, there is a recession with persons losing jobs and there is no market for the firms output, income for marginal businesses declines. This causes a cash flow problem for most businesses. A caring bank may recognize this and restructure the loan or even offer a moratorium on the debt.
However, the banker is constrained by the need to maintain staff, pay interests on deposits and earn an acceptable rate of return to shareholders. So it is a balancing act.
Very often the banker who gave the loan is not the same officer who has to ensure that each client is profitable. So it is not an easy decision. My experience is that banks resort to foreclosures after exploring all avenues to help the customer.
@ David
You are quite aware that the Canadian banking system did not suffer the banking failures which the financial system in USA and European countries experienced. It was precisely because of their strict adherence to financial probity. This is good for them and perhaps bad for us. When we had local development and commercial banks they took the strain. But you will also recalled they were roundly lambasted for not being as efficient as foreign banks. So this is a case where banks are damned if they do and damned if they do not do.
@Bernard
And you are aware the Canadian mortgage market is government-backed?
Do the math.
BREAKING NEWS!!! Srt a new blog to discuss pleas… David?
With less than two years to go before the next general election, Barbados Labour Party (BLP) Leader Mia Mottley is already making a case to the private sector as to why a Government under her leadership would be capable of digging the country “out of the seemingly bottomless pit”.
“Tugging at the heartstrings of the business community, Mottley said the country was suffering from a huge fiscal deficit, inefficiencies, corruption”
@ David 12:12 PM
What do you mean by Government backed? I read the referenced article and it seems to be setting stringent constraints on getting a house mortgage. These conform to my concept of financial probity. Do you think if these guidelines were set for prospective purchasers at the Grotto and Valery that many working class persons would qualify ? But it is possible I have misread.
@ David,
The change to stringent mortgage constraints is based on the expectation that mortgage and interest rates will rise in a year or two.
The Canadian economy is not as robust as we would hope.
In canada we cannot deduct interest on your personal residence, I thought in the us you can up to the first million and in barbados up to 10000 per year so over 36 yrs a wise saver could have saved a lot of money . Is it possible that could come into the lower calculation
Bush Tea there is one caveat to us being just as screwed as the poor eventually as MB knows well is to own many houses sell them one at a time to support everything and dont outlive the money
Bernard,
This claim is a myth. The leading Canadian banks were up to their necks in the sub-prime scandal. They were buying off balance sheet packaged mortgages, the kind that led to the collapse of Lehmann Bros through the counterparty risks.
Bernard, which country are you in? Are you a trained and working economist? These arguments were all debated eight years ago. The world has moved on.
In any case, Canada is in the second eleven of global economies.
GOIN WD OWIN AGAIN???
“MAKE A DECISION! The advice of former Prime Minister Owen Arthur to the Freundel Stuart administration, which has been resisting entering into a full-fledged International Monetary Fund (IMF) programme.
http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/90729/arthur-delay#sthash.s3ilMJz8.dpuf
Steupsss
Wunna always pontificating on the ‘rules of albino-land’ when the moot is the shiite that going on in brass bowl land.
This has NOTHING to do with the rules of banking in Canada. the USA ,or even Barbados. it is about the REALITY of average Bajans accessing funding for business in brassbados. It only takes two or three crooks, well placed in a bank, to create a reality here, that defies all the rules and regulations in place.
No one in their right mind would suggest that an international bank would have POLICIES that are clearly discriminatory. …or that they would hand out money wily nilly.
The problem is that there are elements at work who use the bank to exploit the weaknesses of small business persons who must of necessity expose their achilles heels to these banks. Most victims are then made to feel ashamed because of idiotic comments such as those we see from Sargeant, (that they are to blame for being poor businesspeople) and this allows the crooks to get away with the shiite.
No doubt the same thing happens in Canada and elsewhere, it just does not go on, and on, and on, ….because the regulators there are actually competent, are not related to politicians, and are themselves under proper supervision and scrutiny….. unlike here with our shiite central banker who cannot even grasp the basis of currency pegging.
@Bushie
The banking system isn’t as different as you might think.
The issue is perspective. IF the bank (FI) doesn’t lend to persons without an AAA+ credit rating their business will stagnate. And in little Bim they will be accused of not ‘supporting the local economy’. It happens in all the small towns in Canada too, especially the farmers. The ‘misfortunes’ of which you speak, you seem to be convinced are intentional. Having a loan go bad is NEVER in the banks best interest. The bank itself has minimal control over the day to day decisions made by the company or individual.
If you wish to extrapolate your theory, just look at credit cards. Even in today’s historically low interest rate environment, CC debt is still at 18%+ compounded daily. Anybody can get a credit card, unless they have declared bankruptcy (my point an official bad mark on their credit history). And people “lie” on all kinds of things to get CC’s. It becomes a matter of balance, making money vs losing money. And appreciate when a CC goes bad, and the customer owes say $7000, the majority of that is interest. The actual hard loss is only what the bank paid on the purchases made on the CC.
If they don’t have defaulters, they don’t have a business. Customers who pay the full amount on time generate no income for the CC issuer.
There is no question all these products (loans) are going to hit the ‘poorer’ customers hardest. Or those without much financial savvy.
@ Northern Observer
Having a loan go bad is NEVER in the banks best interest.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You still miss the point.
Having CAHILL was never in the country’s best interest…
….neither is SBRC
… The Desal scam
… Sandals,
….Four Seasons,
…..the shiite that was done to the Andrews sugar factory
…nor any number of other ‘projects’ undertaken by politicians.
But “it’s an ill wind that blows no one any good…”
You can rest assured that in EACH of the above cases, and in many of the bank defaults of which we speak, certain elements make a killing.
Some even show charity by making their mothers very rich….
Have people here never heard about disaster capitalism?
Could it be merely cyclic that we always have these ups and downs, at the personal, national, global levels?
There has never been any better way for banks to make money than through disasters.
I know a guy who sold a 100 unit apt building for a buck because he wrote off so much interest that the building it was virtually worthless because of the govt recapture on sale. Kids today get all types of parental advice but the best would be to get an acct as soon as they start working.
lawson November 25, 2016 at 7:53 AM
Not forgetting the mega-churches that are now springing up all over Barbados, some of which are encouraging the elderly among their flock to take out loans and reverse mortgages on their properties. Like the fellow who bought a million dollar church with loans secured by some of his followers, then legged it off to the States, leaving these people in Shiite Street,and I don’t mean Rockley or Worthing. Or the doctor/pastor /senator who bragged that he had spent some $5million building his mega- church , and did not borrowed a cent from the bank. There are vultures at every street corner in Barbados. Three -card brag men come in many different suits.
Bush Tea November 25, 2016 at 3:14 PM
etc, etc, etc
What has happened to the Del Mastro/Deltro solar panel plant shipped from Arizona to Bridgetown harbour in October 2015.
https://www.meiriggingcrating.com/project/solar-energy-factory-relocation/
“MEI Rigging and Crating’s Arizona team executed the rigging teardown and disassembly of the solar line and other equipment, crated the production line, and blocked and and braced it on an ocean container headed for Barbados. The Deltro Electric job used a total of 30 high cube containers (tall shipping containers) and 4 flatbed trucks to transport the disassembled solar module manufacturing line, along with everything else in the building. There were a total 55 skids and 15 crates used to package up all the equipment from the line. The largest size crate was for the Framing Station with dimensions of 268 x 147 x 79. The heaviest crate was the Laminator which weighed in at 32,000 lbs (crate & tool) and measured 221 x 137 x 118.”
That is a lot of storage charges.
Col what would you pay for an extra minute on this planet to say goodbye to family, and have life ever after that is what these snake oil men are selling. We should be smarter the older we get ……….Life is a good teacher but it kills all its pupils
Due Diligence November 25, 2016 at 5:40 PM #
Perhaps they have already profited by some tax write off back in the States.
Not known to many, some years ago and American Company, brought in an old bottling plant ,set up production in one of the vacated factory units in Newton Industrial Estate. They produced plenty cans of Classic Cola, but not a single can was exported, or officially , sold locally. Some weeks later, with a warehouse packed with coke , the operators who by this time were back in the States , phoned the caretaker/watchman and instructed him to dump the whole lot in the land fill.
The old bottling plant was dismantled, and probably shipped to another island to continue the scam.
We in the Caribbean are easy prey
The way we were. BLP-DLP united by a bottle a rum (or a glass of champagne ). lol
http://www.nationnews.com/nationnews/news/90727/arthur-careful-privatisation
@BushT
you are fairly logical fella, and now you mixing up a bunch of political extravaganzas with the operation of a large private entity? You know one is for profit and the others operate at a loss.
Bush T is clearly out of his depth in understanding the relationship between Banks and their clients so he resorts to vague pronouncements about “‘two or three crooks well placed in a bank”. In his futile attempt to locate a villain he hints of a conspiracy by these crooks to defy rules established by their employer. When all else fails he resorts to accusations of nefarious activities by “ elements at work who use the bank to exploit the weaknesses of small business persons”. He fails to understand that bad loans (the Banks would term them non- current loans) reflect poorly on the individual(s) who place them on the books. They may not result in someone being dismissed (unless there are too many in their portfolio) but they will affect their raises, bonuses and diminish your chances of being promoted. No Peter Principle there.
He portrays Bajan small business owners as being poor business persons who are taken advantage of by bankers, perhaps those small business people should follow his advice and avoid Banks, there is always Microcredit.
@ Sargeant
You are so clueless…. 🙂
You are lucky to have made it past corporal.
Anyway, …have the last word.
You are most likely being genuine, since you probably don’t have the kind of money that would expose you to the issues under discussion.
Poverty is a good defence against robbery.
LOL
ha ha ha
Officially, one will see numerous reports that approx 9.5 million US households suffered to foreclosures and short sales after 2007. I think that number is low, because short sales (defined…a sale of real estate in which the net proceeds from selling the property will fall short of the debts secured by liens against the property) are never known in full. I guesstimate the total closer to 13 million.
Now appreciate, every person directly affected has family and friends. I need only direct you to the outpouring on BU towards Ms Riley Fox and the FI involved. Ya think they were pissed?
And a bunch here on BU wonder why the Democrats lost the election? They did well to get that close.
The US government bailed out several of the same FI’s who were involved in creating the mess (remember “too big to fail”?) but how many were ever charged? Or convicted? This despite paying very quiet, but frequent fines or penalties in the Billions, without any “admission of guilt”. They did it because they wanted to??? Right. Within two years they are back to collecting 6 figure salaries and bonuses; why? They were worth it? No, because the system had no consequences. They even bailed out several large employers.
You think the folks who lost all their money (equity) in those deals forgot? Then they lay out an economic policy of historically low interest rates. Have you heard the song and the words? People will be able to borrow again, and this will lead to “investment” and will get the economy growing, and this growth will generate the jobs and taxes to repay the debts. You still waiting for that?….well me too.
@Northern
You seem to link the financial crisis circa 2008 at the feet of the Democrats it didn’t start under Obama’s watch he inherited it, if you are hinting that they lost because none of the bankers were sent to jail because of their actions the only person that the Republican electorate wanted to send to jail was Hillary. I agree that people should have been prosecuted but the Executive thought that prosecution would tie up the Justice Dept. for years and the efforts of the Justice Dept. under Holder/Lynch would be better focused on other matters which proved to be all for naught given who will now be in charge of that Dept.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008
Lest you think that only US FI’s were bailed out here is some bedtime reading:
NB. This was a Conservative Gov’t led by Harper
Bush Tea wrote ” Poverty is a good defense against robbery.”
good one Bushie.
Sarge
Did I say the Democrats began it? Failure to prosecute showed the people they were no different to any prior administration, and treated millions of financially compromised citizens with disrespect compared to how they treated the bankers. That pissed off alot of people. Reasons like “failure to clog the court system” is BS. They spent how many trillion in debt and couldn’t hire 200 lawyers and CPA’s?
Mine is not a left-right, Dem-Rep, Lib-PC-NDP, DLP-BLP argument. It is until collectively something is done to make people responsible for their actions little will change. The current US administration had the choice and chose to do nothing.
Canada is in no sweet position? Forget the Federal accounts, the provincial, town and city accounts are in a mess.
Fidel Castro dead at age 90.
its the moment the small islands have been dreading; I wonder if Raoul can keep the lid on Cuba or will the people have two chickens in every pot. If they really open their doors to tourism and investment look out carribean
Hants living up north you should know the value of a heat pump. You know being able to recover heat even in the coldest temperatures because there is a difference of 10 degrees of heat between =20 and -30 . So if you think poverty is a good defence I pray you dont run into someone worse off than you
Canada may be down but we have something to sell resources,tourism,knowledge I like our chances compared to the rest of the world. Canada voted one of the best places to live ottawa voted one of the best places in canada dont just trust me 150000 somalies cant be wrong.
[…] See related link: Fairness in Action Committee: Save the Home of Ann Riley-Fox […]
Does this sound like someone in the bank, or his/her friends, or the lawyer(s) offices might just have made a good deal under the counter to purchase same said property. It does happen. Believe it.
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