Submitted by the Mahogany Coconut Think Tank and Watchdog Group
corporal and capital punishment have widespread support
…corporal and capital punishment have widespread support…

The Mahogany Coconut Group is quite aware that corporal and capital punishment have widespread support throughout the Caribbean region. We respectfully suggest that this strong support is based on the often referenced biblical positions: If you spare the rod you spoil the child and an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Many of us growing up in the region experienced serious lashes for our wrong doings. Indeed, some claim that these floggings actually saved them from the hangman’s noose.

There is a rising school of thought, which suggests that our addiction to corporal punishment is an after effect of the beatings we received at the hands of the slave master; that our entire history is based on violence and that corporal punishment is a psychological left over or is it carry over, from the slave days. The MCG finds this position to be quite viable and we go as far as to suggest, that much of how we see ourselves at present, may very well be the after effects of slavery , in several forms but we digress.

The debate on corporal punishment, has taken centre stage over the past few weeks because a mother in Trinidad and Tobago, flogged her teenage daughter and then released the beatings on social media. The daughter had apparently posed semi nude and had distributed her pictures on face book. We understand the rage of the mother but we cannot condone inflicting beatings on a minor and then exposing such brutality for the world to see. It makes our region look barbaric.

We are even more concerned because a few months ago, a Barbadian mother, beat her daughter in public with a piece of wood and she was hailed as some sort of hero for brutalizing her child. We note that the mother in Trinidad and Tobago also has attracted considerable support. The belief that such physical abuse will by some strange act of magic, make these young ladies better children or at a later stage better adults, escapes the MCG. Quite frankly we believe that both parents should have been prosecuted for such violence against children they should be protecting.

There are many things wrong with America but there is no parent who can get away with such actions. The authorities would have removed the children from the homes and placed them under the supervision of the relevant child protection agency. Those who hold fast to the belief that children should be beaten in homes and schools, should be warned ,that the same bible they rely on for strengthening their positions on corporal punishment does mention, we think, that violence begets (begats) violence. Even if we have misquoted the bible we believe this to be true.

In both cases the mothers were wrong.

93 responses to “Flogging – Violence begets (begats) Violence”


  1. the best form of discipline is to deny a child what that child holds true and dearest to themselves,,, removing and discontinuing special privileges like having fun evenings with friends,,not being able to participate in special events at school or social settings,,,that hurts ,, hurts more than lashes,,,,,as kids enjoy the fun of laughter and participation,,well except for in today’s society ,,where technology gadgets are the norm..however the same principle would apply,,

  2. St George's Dragon Avatar
    St George’s Dragon

    But surely the Bible got it right with:
    “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
    That’s irony, by the way.

  3. St George's Dragon Avatar
    St George’s Dragon

    Or alternatively:
    “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.”
    I suppose that’s not meant literally, though, unlike the Biblical strictures about homosexuality.
    Just to confirm, that’s irony again.


  4. in todays society how would one categorized such laws.it is hard truly hard to believe or imagine that people of such barbaric nature once had such control and power over peoples lives, ,,,,,by nature were the architects and engineers of horror,,,,


  5. ac

    Acquired from whom in 1500? You mean the Olu of Ife was already a eunuch? And the Oba of Benin? You are suffering terminal illness from the reductionist fallacy.

    St George

    Don’t be silly. It was all acquired from SLAVERY in Egypt….oh but hang on…err…weren’t the Egyptians….err…. well, err…well not white?????

  6. Sunshine Sunny Shine Avatar
    Sunshine Sunny Shine

    You cannot ascribe a punishment that you feel is in the betterment of the child because the child may respond to that punishment with resistance or indifference which can effect their lives negatively. It does not matter what form of punish you adminster. The effect of the punishment and the ability of the child to understand the punishment meted without having any negative effects towards repurcussions is dependent on the constitution of the child. Flogging could motivate towards a positive to not do or a negative to continue to do with impunity. Taking away priviledges can motivate towards a positive to not do or a negative to continue to do with increase degrees of resistance. What is important is the outcome of the punishment because it does not matter what form of punishment is applied. It all depends on the child.


  7. they are no positive sides to flogging..first it is physical abuse meted out to to a minor,,,an more often than not an extreme form of punishment both physical and mental which can be painful when administered to a defenseless child ,,,,,,,there are no compromises in flogging the long term effects both physical and mental are negatives,,,,,,,the short term effect serves no real purpose as the child would at some point and time resort to other forms of misconduct in similar fashion ,,,, what is necessary is for adults to rethink their methodology and use methods of rewarding a child in instances where the child does good where a lesson can be taught and learned by the child while instilling a habit of long term positives in the child rather that instilling.. retribution …hostility ..anger and violence which the child would act upon or use as corrective measures in adult years…., in order for any form of violence to be stamped out it must be uprooted in the childhoods years starting in the homes with adults using positive forms or less painful methods of corrective measures to discipline the child,,, there must be a zero tolerance for any form of abuse which can lead to long term damage both physical and psychological on a society,,,,


  8. ross ..i will ignore .stick to your archaic ideologies of barbarism and racism…..if it makes u happy…..adios amigo,,,,may the force be with you…


  9. I am tired of this supermarket psychology being practiced on this blog. When a child is going in the way of wrong or badness, do you think all of this holding hand and pleading shall get the message home about the need to walk in the right road. How are all of you going to get these young people to hear you when you are beneath all this verbiage that is being recommended here.

    This is like women looking for effeminate men and then expecting a lion to come running out the house to defend them when something happens.


  10. @Lemuel

    It is not a perfect world yet we debate in absolutes.

  11. islandgal246 Avatar

    Lemmie since when you feel that wunna menz could tackle a lion? LOLL When wunna could bear child pain at birth then we could talk. Listen women know that most of wunna menz are COWARDS. Who do yuh think was behind yuh pushing yuh towards de lion? If we wasn’t behind wunna pushing wunna would have been outta de house hollering and embarassing we. De saying behind every brave man is a braver woman is sooo true.

  12. islandgal246 Avatar

    PS Lemmie doan let a little pussy cat frighten yuh..:-)


  13. @ SSS
    Bushie is impressed.
    You have understanding beyond your claimed years.

    @ Dragon
    What the hell do you thing the current death row is all about? When children turn out to be beyond their parents control, they ARE brought to the gate at Dodds and the ‘elders’ sentence their asses to death and the MEN put them to death….

    Our problem is that we have no MEN….just effeminate males like Ross and Peter Wickham, who don’t have the required BALLS to do what is in the overall society’s interests…

    So the unruly bad boy become increasingly brave – and soon they will start executing anyone brave enough to stand up for justice and truth…as they create THEIR kind of society….
    ….oh wait….that started already nuh….?!!!

    Brass bowls!!!


  14. Island:

    I hear you.


  15. wait as long as i have being living there have always been prison. and in those prison walls dwells the innocent as well as the guilty,,,there are various forms of crime and if flogging as is being touted was indeed a special kind of deterrent ,,then the adult population that is a large percentage of the prison populace would be all but nonexistence,,,,mostly in part that a significant amount of the adult population was raised in homes where flogging was used as a tool as punishment,,,,, furthermore the same disciplinary of flogging can be a attributed as to why the prison population of youth and adults contain to expand,,,,,mainly in part to what these inmates had experience in childhood as corrective measure which have taught them that extreme forced is necessary to gain a measure of control,,,,hence we have a percentage of a population who can not differentiate between negative and positive corrective methods and can only rely and resort to seeking resolve in the manner of way it was meted out to them….,,,,..


  16. @ ac
    Where you went to school?


  17. advocating abuse in any form displays a mental disorder it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.however it would,nt be far fetched to conclude that a kunckelhead like bush tea have had too many knocks up against his head which have left him completly deranged a..shole.


  18. Oh! I missed the days when the detectives of the CID, used to filled in where parents used to failed. Listen! I rode alone with the police when their took the bad boys from District A Police Station, to Central Police Station lockup. Now, with that being said, I have to ask this question though: where are the modern day, Dirty Harry, Track-Suit – Top, Rat – Brown, Invader- Bowen, Lion-man etc, theseen did the serious beating back in the day.


  19. anyone who says that when being floggedas a child they fiest reaction wasrr love and appreeciation for those who did the flogging is a bold faced liar..now this punishment which is supposed to instill moral values has planted the seeds of hate and violence in the early stages of a child development.then we wonder how come we are such a violent society..behaviours can be taught and learned and the earlier they are instilled in the mind the harder they become to remove fear and violence amongst the hardest..a society built on positive starting within the home and practicing and planting seeds of peaceful resolve in the long term would beneift all.we all be in sync for better and not having to look over our shouders and taking steps in avoiding the culture of bushtea from invading our homes


  20. @ac

    And in the USA where flogging is not used as a disciplinary option? It is all love isn’t it?


  21. david the point here i am making is that positive behaviour instiled in early child development is crucial to how a society. is built…and love being an important and vital component…america is a melting pot of many races and cultures and there is where you would find your answer as to why ..violence and anti social behaviour which can be traced to differening forms of discipline used in households


  22. @ac

    Hmmm


  23. @ David
    We have thanked you in the past for your stirling contribution to Bajan society through your outstanding work with BU.

    BU has been an education in multiple ways….Indeed, before BU, the bushman would NEVER have even contemplated that someone as dense as ac could possible exists – and actually operate among us – appearing to be a ‘normal’ person…
    …..It is damn frightening yuh, and it bodes ill for our future. 🙁

  24. pieceuhderockyeahright Avatar
    pieceuhderockyeahright

    “Bring up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he shall not depart from it…”

    Raising a child is not an exact science, what combination of kind words, denials of privileges, hard slaps, ear pinches, go to your room, public embarrassments, where you was when i cum fuh you at school dis evening….you is a man ketch de bus and walk home den”, some warm ass liks in front the internet screen for a 12 year old woman that looking fuh sex and oan know bout pregnancy, STDs and AIDS and gine bring a chile to the house of a woman struggling to stand alive in these hard economic times…

    We are all rights and we are all wrong, given varying circumstances but which of you can definitively say that for many of the beatings and floggings, it was done to abuse you or it was done out of love?

    What is the greater abuse/sin, this mother beating the “woman” out of the chile whose mout she feeding, whose back she clothing, whose ass she housing? or the ole mens like me who giving her a $10 top up for a blow job or the middle age software programmers who giving all the youngsters Doom II, Cannon Fodder Hitman, Call of Duty and are desensitizing our innocents.

    Here we are concerned about flogging the child for talking to menses at the corner of the road when the software that we are buying for our children are bringing the same men into our homes, with its “info shares” name, address, phone number, “built in location shares” click on facebook and you see where the person texting you is” and “user interacts” where you can stay in Germany and see my old swibbly botsie in Bulbados.

    So the question remains not if we have to set rules and use what we know as deterrents but why have we stopped in the face of the evidence that the enemy to all that we believe to be important, is now within our gates..

  25. pieceuhderockyeahright Avatar
    pieceuhderockyeahright

    is bringing not are bringing, de ole man does mek alotta mistakes nowadays


  26. what bodes ill for our past.. present and future is that nincompoops of the bush tea generation are still having a “says so” in shaping the future of society..even though the methods and principles they have used have failed and have produced a generation of degenerates and hatefilled monsters..so what,s wrong with admitting the failures..and what so wrong with trying other alternatives are we so stiffnecked and stubborn rather than seek change continue on the same deadly path of destructions..the jury has spoken we are guilty of creating a society out of fear and violence a learned and repetive behaviour which started in early childhood and passed on from generation to generation..make no mistake it can only get worse unless all admit the mistakes made


  27. Some of you need to attack the issues especially when tackling soft issues where there is no blueprint. It is the night of ignorance to discuss such issues in absolutes.

    On Saturday, 10 May 2014, Barbados Underground wrote:

    >

  28. pieceuhderockyeahright Avatar
    pieceuhderockyeahright

    Yes AC let us put out the old elephants to die as in Chinua Achebe and the Orwellian heroes.

    So if i follow your logic, we are to read and laud the books of the old fogies but as to the actual writers, some of whom still (unfortunately) live nincompoops like the Bush tians and PUDRYR, we are to be confined to the shadows, having passes our sell by date and “forever hereafter hold our piece”

    But softly, I beg you softly, wait yet awhile and we shall soon be cannon fodder, and all this shall be yours, inheritors that you be who, unlike us, have found what Juan Ponce de León could not, and will live forever young.

    All is vanity and vexation of the spirit…


  29. absolute david..what absolute..no kido..this is an absolute reality .with lessons which one can learn from..with experience being the principal teacher .

    pdyr ..yes my man..no hard feelings..your generation took the hand book you were given.never asking or questioing its source and viabilty..belive u me i also depended on its guidance..but do i know better now…hell yes and have moved away making room for those withmore umderstanding in how to


  30. LOL ac

    “I will ignore”…..you answer a question with a jibe – not an argument sunshine. But then, you’re there to amuse aren’t you? Brilliant characterization though.


  31. ross..in the meanwhile continue to wallow. in your ignorance in defense of racist attitudes and let ac continue to wallow in her ignorance indefense of rebuilding a society for better…now mr lawyer don,t waste time on ac. stay the course a good lawyer is not easily distracted

  32. Sunshine Sunny Shine Avatar
    Sunshine Sunny Shine

    The issue of the administration of any form of punishment is complex. The arguements for and against corporal punishment has its merits and demerits. I base my arguments not on the punishment but on the outcome of that punishment because rather that punishment effects the child negatively or positively is dependent on the child. Its like arguing that white children are better than black children or Trinidadians are more intelligent than Barbadians. All arguments are built on a premise that must be proven.

  33. Sunshine Sunny Shine Avatar
    Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Lemuel
    This is a blog. Discussion on here is not base on expert opinion . What do you expect. Your description of supermarket psychology is crap.

  34. Sunshine Sunny Shine Avatar
    Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Boo Boo AC

    Have not read your contributions yet. Read one or two. If they are balance filled with sense and if you have brought forth the positives associated with alternative forms of punishment that are beneficial to children, I will, as i have said, stop call you a cunt. You notice I have not been on here for a few days. Been busy hon. So will read your contributions later. If they are balance and well thought out I will as promise pay you respect. But if you are still talking cunt…I will tear you a new pooch hole.


  35. another one of BT quotable quotes which he no less found in the Bilble to verify and expanded his ideology and ridiculous theory of flogging……Spare not the rod,,,,,,,,, by now The outspoken dictator should be aware of the many symbolic referance which has been used in the bible as pertaining to every day life that mankind could related in order to make a point,,,,,,e,g seed,,,,,, ten virgins,,,,,,die by the sword,,,,,,fishers of men …… by your fruit,,,,,,,, eye for an eye,,,,,taking such symbol’s and in the context there were given as an example cannot be taken literally,,,,, there are many ways to discipline and BT and his followers would be better off if the first understand the phrases and the symbolic meaning behind them,,, here is one of jesus quotable quotes,,,,,,now BT here is something for you to chew on..maybe u can call dirty ole man PDYR to help u chew on……..A little child shall lead them……symbolic or factuallll


  36. On this blessed MOTHERS DAY..give love and hugs..avoid using recipes of disasters …tongue lashes and symbols to cause pain and hurt..instead use symbols of love..kindness..patience and understanding…rewarding and fruitful….HAPPY MOTHERS DAY


  37. Ac:

    You need to send some love to SSS!!

  38. pieceuhderockyeahright Avatar
    pieceuhderockyeahright

    yes Lemuel to SSS and to the dirty ole man PUDRYR lol…


  39. Piece:

    SSS needs to send love especially to you!!

  40. Sunshine Sunny Shine Avatar
    Sunshine Sunny Shine

    Piece got my love
    Lemuel Got my love
    AC has been improving her writing. Not been seeing so much onesided written fews of lately though she tends go off on tantrum of irrevelancy. But Ok…All my love to my BOO AC…


  41. ask david he can cofirm it,s not about ac..stick to the topic..and for those who expect love the principal is in the giving.for what does it profit mankind to gain the whole world and lose his own soul..


  42. Is it therefore safe to conclude that those children who were never flogged all became deviants and only those who were flogged walked the straight and narrow ?


  43. It might be safer to say that those who initiated and intrduce the use of the whip to subdue and subject are the deviants and most knows who they are and when it first started .the stories are well recorded in history .what seems to have escape many blacks who relies on such a inhumane form of punishment is. the fact that there was a time in history. when their fore parents under law had the barbaric punishment administrated..if only for that reasons intelligent blacks wanting not to engaged in slave master practices should ….let

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