O Christmas Tree

Caswell Franklyn, Head of Unity Workers Union

Caswell Franklyn, Head of Unity Workers Union

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are in vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with an ax.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not; they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

The above passage is taken from Jeremiah 10: 2 – 5, King James Version of the Holy Bible. It is telling us not to learn the ways of the heathen, and it singles out the practice of cutting down a tree from the forest and decorating it with silver and gold. Amazingly, those instructions from the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah, who lived six hundred years before the birth of Christ, seem to be speaking about the modern day practice of decorating a Christmas tree.

It is safe to conclude that the custom of setting up Christmas trees has nothing to do with what some is the reason for the season – the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If I am to go by the words of Jeremiah, the custom of setting up Christmas trees is merely following the ways of the heathen. Surely, it should be offensive to right-thinking people to adopt the customs of heathens to celebrate the birth of Christ.

It is also interesting to note that the Christian church only started celebrating the birth of Christ four hundred years after his birth. Again the church adopted pagan celebrations that pre-date the birth of Christ to celebrate that event.

0 thoughts on “O Christmas Tree


  1. Of course all religions involve syncresis.

    So the pre-Christian custom of decorating trees in the “winter” has infiltrated the celebration of Christ’s birth, and has even infiltrated the tropics where there is no winter, and where evergreen trees are not regarded as highly symbolic of life, because in the tropics green trees are an everyday commonplace.

    However to say that we should not have Christmas trees because of what is written in Jeremiah 10: 2 – 5, is like saying we should not not enjoy the wuk-ups of Crop Over because we have NEVER set foot in a sugar cane field.


  2. I always say to Christians they are celebrating the birth of the new Sun and not the Son according to the traditions of the season.

    I always laugh when persons say Christ should be returned to the season, because he was never in it from its inception. Good post.


  3. I am not saying that people should not celebrate Christmas, but I think that they should be aware what they are actually celebrating. Pagan celebration at this time of the year existed long before the birth of Christ. The Christian church adopted the celebration as a way of appeasing the pagans that they were seeking to convert but the pagans refused to give up their merriment, so the church dusted of the pagan celebration and repackaged it as the birth of Christ. Essentially, the church perpetrated a massive fraud on the world. Unfortunately, religious leaders continue the charade of Christmas even though they know better.


  4. @ What? | December 27, 2012 at 5:21 PM |
    “I always say to Christians they are celebrating the birth of the new Sun and not the Son.”

    Be careful how you tread on hallowed turf. Unless you speak from the lectern of esoterica erected on the Altar of the God Sol Invictus you might be wounded by the arrows of ignorance from the likes of Zoe and his minions.
    Godspeed on your journey of enlightenment, my friend “What?”!


  5. Please kindly note that Jeremiah 10: 2 – 5,has nothing to do with decorating Christmas trees.If the text is rightly divided in its context as it should, one would note that this verse is one of many OT scriptures that has to do with idols, or false gods. If one will read Psalm 115, will get a good understanding of this.

    Psalm 115
    1 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth’s sake.

    2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands.

    5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

    6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

    7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

    8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

    The early church, and the church which went underground after Constantine’s foolishness certainly did not celebrate Christmas or decorate trees. Instead, the early church is said in Acts 2:42 to do this……… And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


  6. @Caswell “Essentially, the church perpetrated a massive fraud on the world.”

    But Caswell it is not a fraud. Any Christian over 10 years old knows what you know.

    We celebrate because we enjoy the festivities.

    Just as we celebrate wuk-ups of Crop Over even though we have no intention of EVER setting foot in a sugar cane field.

    We know. We have not been fooled by the Church. We are not ignorant.


  7. And”no” we are not celebrating the birth of the new sun. Because in teh tropics the sun and its life sustaining warmth never goes away.

    We fully understand that many current Christmas celebrations are relics of Northern European pre-Christian festivals.

    Otherwise why in the tropics so people buy fake snow?

    And bring a green tree inside, when the outside is full of living green trees?

    Why the rigmarole about the new birth of the sun, when in the tropics the sun and its warmth NEVER goes away.

    Why yule logs? Really does anybody in the tropics burn wood in a fireplace indoors?

    We fully understand that many current Christmas celebrations are relics of Northern European pre-Christian festivals.


  8. Simple Simon

    I most certainly would not mind being one of your Current men … HA HA HA. I often wondered what it would be like doing nasty things with a women that is of the same mind … HA HA HA


  9. I think that David is glad that there is this person called Caswell. Man he does attract attention to his comments like flies to jam or shite, which is it …?


  10. Sorry Island

    This ain’ your thread tonight … This is the thread for lonely miserable people who believe that there is still a chance to change the world for the better … HA HA HA


  11. in someway caswell is right even if he misinterpret the chapter as xmas was borne out of paganism connected to the ritual of a lighted and decorated xmas tree which in part is a symbol of idolatry .


  12. Current Christmas rites are a syncresis of pre=Christian European festivals and Christianity.

    Easter same thing. You really think that Santa Claus and egg laying “Easter” bunnies appear in the 4 Gospels?

    But the Resurection is about new life.

    And eggs are about new life, didn’t we all come from sperm eggs and ovum eggs?

    And are not bunnies know for their friskiness (like BAFBFP) and lively reproductive successes?


  13. Simon

    I got to talk soft, ’cause I don’ want Cas to hear … But if you is a buller, I would be made to feel really hard done … HA HA HA .. Now da soun’ like a pun too nah .. HA HA HA …!


  14. @BAFBFP

    Be careful, Simple Simon may want you to go out and help fork, plough or weed that acre of greens!!! HA, HA, HA~


  15. In order to get Pagans to worship Christ the Romans replaced the Pagan Winter Solstice with Christmas. The Pagans still drink and party.

    Jesus was not born on 25th December,
    he may have been born on Aprils Fools Day

    Si ‘mon’ said that already


  16. Yes David.As celebrated ChriSTmas has pagan origins dating back to CONSTANTINE’S TIME CERCA 313 WITH THE ORIGIN OF THE ROMAN CHURCH.
    THE EARLY CHURCH THAT EXISTED PRIOR TO THIS DID NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS


  17. Some church groups in Christendom dont celebrate Christmas.But since most are an off shoot from the Roman church, many do.

    I think there is nothing wrong with an annual meditation concerning all the Scriptures that teach the first coming of Christ as some church groups do .My church group which tends to be Christocentric in its worship style, will discuss the first coming of Christ at any time of the year.

    .Otherwise as celebrated for most of christendom it is just another pagan festival.

    I dont rant and rave about the celebrations anymore. however.


  18. All these comments and David only respond to the man that like shouting ,,, HA HA HA … WELL DA IS A’RIGHT DAVID …!

    Kiki you is a youngster, you must know when to be quiet around grown ups … a’ight …? 🙂

    Pat

    Dey ain’ nuttin’ green ’bout Simon hear … too many ex-men … HA HA HA


  19. Most readers and contributors to BU would believe that to be religious is to be Christian.
    What would they have believed if by accident of birth they had been born in India, or Afghanistan, or Sri Lanka? That to be religious is to be Hindu, Buddist or Muslim.
    Christmas trees are a minor detail in just one of the world’s major religions.


  20. Just a couple of days ago in response to BushTea writing that he doesn’t “do Xmas” and I responded that Miller doesn’t celebrate it either but he would probably call it a “Saturnalian Bacchanal” no one bit on the reference.

    Here is what I was referring to if one was seeking the origin of Xmas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia


  21. Caswell Caswell Caswell.

    Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge can be a curse. Accepted truth is a blessing.

    Put the lid back on the Pandora box before somebody call Zoe and tell she bout this thread or someone else brings up the Sabbath. 🙂

    @simon
    I dey wid ya all the way on this one….well except the gay part. Ain’t sure if Baffy want to find out more but we cool like dat

    @GP
    Educational as usual.

    @st. George’s
    Many other things are minor in the grander scheme of things

    Just observing


  22. Saturnalia is just one of many winter solstice festivals.
    I like the Babylonian Akitu festival, which was a winter / spring festival in ancient Mesopotamia. Marduk who is celebrated in the festival appears as a life-death-rebirth deity, reflecting the festival’s agrarian origin based on the cycle of sowing and harvesting. He is imprisoned in the underworld and rises again on the third day. The festival lasted 12 days. Sounds familiar.
    Look also at:
    Soyal – the Zuni and the Hopi Indians held on December 21.
    Yalda – the Persian winter solstice celebration which is celebrated on or around December 20 or 21 each year. They believed Mithra, the Persian angel of light and truth was born this night.
    Mōdraniht (Old English “Night of the Mothers” or “Mothers’-night”) – an event held at what is now Christmas Eve by the Anglo-Saxon Pagans.
    Pancha Ganapati – a modern five-day Hindu festival celebrated from December 21 through 25 in honor of Lord Ganesha, Patron of Arts and Guardian of Culture.
    Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” – celebrated by the Romans on December 25th. It is claimed that the date of for Christmas was selected in order to correspond with this Roman festival.
    Yule – a midwinter festival celebrated by the Germanic peoples.Another 12-day festival.
    Malkh – a festival of the Vainakh people celebrated on 25 December which was the birthday and the festival of the Sun. During the ceremonies suppliants turned to the east. Christian churches are still aligned to the east.
    Clearly the winter solstice is the rock on which a lot of festivals including Christmas, were based. and it is equally clear that many symbols of Christmas were borrowed from other beliefs – trees, yule logs, snow, reindeers, Santa Claus and mistletoe spring to mind.


  23. @Sargeant | December 27, 2012 at 9:16 PM |
    “… I responded that Miller doesn’t celebrate it either but he would probably call it a “Saturnalian Bacchanal” no one bit on the reference.”

    So you thought!
    I give way to “Observing’s” bit of advice: “Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge can be a curse. Accepted truth is a blessing”.

    Zoe has been shut away in his bat cave for the season under heavy medication (probably alcohol). Revealing the truth about Xmas would be like a taste of fresh blood to a vampire in a dungeon. You don’t want to see Zoe on the zealot’s rampage this holiday now, do you?
    BTW, I like the pet name “Miller the Tapir”. Funny enough that’s what an old sport from the days of hunting calls me (LOL!!!). But not for ac to hear! Even BAF is envious of a dead man.


  24. @caswell the writer of this column…i know you wanted to use the scripture to make your point.I would suggest next time try to used the appropriate text to fit the point you are trying to convey.This one you have taken out of context and at the time this scripture was written for god people through jeremiah about their idol worship.If you would have slanted your column along those lines you would be right on point.So next time research the text and its history and background before using it out of context.


    • Charles

      You got this all wrong. I read everything that I get my hands on: one of them happened to be the Bible, and while reading, I came across the text that I quoted. In my little simplistic way, I said that the writer was referring to a practice that was similar to this Christmas tree thing. I then checked to see when the Prophet Jeremiah did his work, again in one of my books, only to discover that he lived six hundred years before Christ. I therefore decided to share what I have found with my friends and others on BU.

      I am not planning to get into the pastor/ charlatan business. Like most of the pastors around here, I am not inspired nor educated enough to pastor any flock. I will stick to industrial relations and labour law to make my living. Meanwhile, I will comment on anything that I see fit, avoiding defamation in the process.

      Sent from my iPad


  25. @BAFBFP | December 27, 2012 at 6:19 PM | Very annoying, but I agree with you once again – and you have made me laugh, which is even more annoying.


  26. Mr. Franklyn

    Your admirer SSS here. I suggest with the upmost respect that you do not thread on subjects to which you are not so apt.


  27. Zoe must be coming to terms with the realisation that everyone is spiritual and it is all based on love for each other not getting angry about doctrine in books, I’m sure we will see a much happier wiser Zoe in 2013
    with his meditation more mellow transformation needs patience and awareness


    • BAFBFP

      You really think that I care how you feel about me? You hold yourself too high in my estimation.

      Sent from my iPad


  28. Caswell ought to be commended on reading up on the background of the Prophet Jeremiah, and even having a book with comments thereon. This is much more than what most of the bible illiterates who post on BU on BIBLE matters can say. Note that I said BIBLE and not RELIGIOUS matters.

    Caswell’s only error in his” simplistic way” in saying “that the writer was referring to a practice that was similar to this Christmas tree thing” was that he tried to apply the text before understanding what the text says and what it means- the first two steps in exegesis. In so doing, he has merely done what about 99% .of those who post on BU do. He started at step three.

    Caswell, please kindly note that I have never been a pastor anywhere- just a serious student of the word. I don’t think that Zoe is either-but I am not sure. However, I understand that he also has a doctorate in theology. Most pastors I have met are not charlatans at all, but are quite poor. In my church group, the leaders are said to be “tent makers” and are unpaid laymen


  29. @ Georgie Porgie | December 28, 2012 at 11:51 AM |
    “Caswell’s only error in his” simplistic way” in saying “that the writer was referring to a practice that was similar to this Christmas tree thing” was that he tried to apply the text before understanding what the text says and what it means- the first two steps in exegesis.”

    Pardon my ignorance and biblical illiteracy but could you please apply the correct step in exegesis to explain to a simple miller the following biblical extracts from the same Old Testament?

    “They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7, 17-18)”
    “Kill everything that breathes” (from humans and animals)! Deuteronomy 20:16
    The miller in his simplistic way might have misquoted or even misinterpreted these commands from your god Yaweh or EL but he sounds rather megalomaniac and a genocidal dictator. Please set the record straight, Apostle GP and tell us what your god Yaweh really meant.


  30. Miller etc quoting Deut ““They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man……..Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7, 17-18)” “Kill everything that breathes” (from humans and animals)! Deuteronomy 20:16”

    Or kill the men, boys and mothers. Rape, and impregnate the virginal teen and pre-teen girls.

    Sounds like war crimes to me or the voice in the head of the young man in Newtown.


  31. RE Pardon my ignorance and biblical illiteracy but could you please apply the correct step in exegesis to explain to a simple miller the following biblical extracts from the same Old Testament?

    SIR your ignorance and biblical illiteracy is hereby pardoned.
    The correct step in exegesis are
    1 determine what the text says
    2 determine what the text means
    3 apply the text

    To accomplish 1 and 2 one may revert to word studies, history geography etc
    I have given you the tools- now try to use them.

    Let me now leave you with these relevant verses from 2 Timothy 2

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


  32. GP
    “SIR your ignorance and biblical illiteracy is hereby pardoned.
    The correct step in exegesis are
    1 determine what the text says
    2 determine what the text means
    3 apply the text”
    ==
    SIR
    That is basic Computer Programming Concepts
    1 Input
    2 Process
    3 Output

    and Eastern Religious Philosopy/Gods
    1 Input : Ganesh (Education)
    2 Process : Buddah (Meditation)
    3 Output : Kali Amman (Application/Destruction)


  33. Do Bajans remember or research any African Philosophy?

    I was recently told of an African tribe that does the most beautiful thing.

    When someone does something hurtful and wrong, they take the person to the center of town, and the entire tribe comes and surrounds him. For two days they’ll tell the man every good thing he has ever done.

    The tribe believes that every human being comes into the world as GOOD, each of us desiring safety, love, peace, happiness.

    But sometimes in the pursuit of those things people make mistakes. The community sees misdeeds as a cry for help.

    They band together for the sake of their fellow man to hold him up, to reconnect him with his true Nature, to remind him who he really is, until he fully remembers the truth from which he’d temporarily been disconnected: “I AM GOOD”.


  34. Here are a few scriptures from a word study that I am currently playing with on the word HIMSELF. These ‘himself” verses listed below tell us why Jesus came the first time. I have just listed the verses. Those who care, can interpret them for themselves.–I hope
    Enjoy
    WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY DID
    • Hebrews 2:14 KJV
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is , the devil;

    • 1 Timothy 2:6 KJV
    Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
    • Titus 2:14 KJV
    Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    • Hebrews 9:14 KJV
    How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    • Hebrews 9:26 KJV
    For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
    • Philippians 2:7 KJV
    But made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    • Philippians 2:8 KJV
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    • Colossians 1:20 KJV
    And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things untohimself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
    • Ephesians 5:2 KJV
    And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
    • Ephesians 5:25 KJV
    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    • Ephesians 5:27 KJV
    That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
    • Galatians 1:4 KJV
    Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    • Ephesians 1:5 KJV
    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    • Ephesians 2:15 KJV
    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    • Galatians 2:20 KJV
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live ; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    • 2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV
    And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    • 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


  35. Bushie FULLY supports Caswell again on this post..with the obvious exception of the reversion to the suit (….clearly David’s doing 🙂 )

    The fact that Christians lay claim to Christmas is just a bunch of nonsense and it typifies the lack of substance to 90% of their beliefs and customs. Everyone knows that Xmas is a pagan festival which was assimilated by Christianity – just as the Trinity doctrine is a Catholic creation which has been assimilated by most others.

    These DIVERSIONS all foster a global blindness to the BASIC GOSPEL (good news) that Jesus brought to mankind…. That he came to earth so that ordinary men can “become God…”

    GP says….
    ***********
    “The correct step in exegesis are
    1 determine what the text says
    2 determine what the text means
    3 apply the text”
    **************
    This is the approach used in bible schools and it fully explains Zoe.
    It is WRONG, misguided, and GUARANTEED to lead to mass confusion.

    The ACTUAL correct steps in understanding the Bible are;
    1. genuinely want to have the answers.
    Ask
    Seek
    Knock

    2. you will NEED to acquire a spiritual component to your carnal mind in order to understand what is a spiritual (and NOT an intellectual) message. This is freely available – it is called the Holy Spirit.

    3. You will eventually become a bushman, and not only understand what the text is saying and meaning, but even be able to identify where the text is WRONG (as for example where jokers have tampered with the translations, the actual text or the interpretation.

    NOTE WELL! THIS IS ‘BRAIN POWER’ NEUTRAL.

    GP’s 3 point plan is useful for ACADEMIC research and scholarship, but not at all helpful in UNDERSTANDING. (As is clearly evident among such “scholars”.)
    How do you think that ordinary fishermen were able to “understand” well enough to actually WRITE the scriptures? ….by brain power?


  36. 2 PETER 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    NOTE friends that the Bible was not written by fishermen only 6 [probably 8] of 27NT books were written by fishermen, and that much of the Bible was written by educated men.

    note also that these verses from 1 Corinthians 2 have been quoted by both Zoe and I on BU several times over the last 4 years

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


  37. “14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
    **********
    Thanks for the reference GP
    Exaxtly Bushie’s point….


  38. @bushie
    Point received, digested and reinforced by GP.
    I wonder how many “natural” people will miss it before they realise a need to be spiritual (not religious nor academic) to begin to almost get it!

    @kiki
    Thanks for the anecdote. We have indeed fallen far from grace and devolved from the beautiful beings we were meant to be. Walk in faith.

    Just Observing


  39. i do not think that God is offended because his children choose to celebrate the birth of Christ on a day that was once used as a pagan holiday, since then Christmas is seen as a season to spread love, joy and peace in remembrance of the Christ child. i do think that we limit God’s mercy and understand of human beings to our own concept of what it must be to be like God. God knows what to expect from man, he knows our limitations and knows how to make something good out of something bad. he does it in our lives everyday, why assume that he is not in favour of christians celebrating the birth of Christ on what was once a pagan festival?


  40. LOL @ Smooth Chocolate
    …..so you are in a position to speak for God!…… GREAT!
    …and the end justifies the means does it?

    Bushie thinks not!!!


  41. @ Kiki
    Because you understand much more that you let on….

    There are 7 billion people on earth (20% are Chinese)
    Most are not even aware of the Christian faith…
    Of those calling themselves “Christian” only a very small percentage arête selves genuine…

    Many persons use the above facts to challenge the “rightness” of a particular theology, or the’fairness’ of God’s design….

    Consider the human equivalent situation…..

    A healthy man produces 400 million sperm each time he ejaculates. Each of these have a chance to be the one to fertilize an egg in a woman’s body and to go on to develop into a new human member of that man’s family.
    You work out how many sperm are produced in a normal man’s lifetime… 5 trillion? 100 trillion?
    HOW MANY SUCCEED IN REACHING THE STAGE OF BIRTH? 2,3, …maybe 6?

    If you are a man with one or two children in your family, do you consider the process flawed (or a failure) – because 99.9999 trillion of your sperm DID NOT reach their full potential…?

    …..Or do you give thanks and celebrate the beautiful new members of your family…?


  42. Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. God created everything the birds bees trees fishes in the sea the apple tree the herb tree

    Didn’t our same God create Buddhists, Muslims and Hindu’s too?

    America has many Christians but they are unholy Warmongers killing killing killing murder murder murder. Shouldn’t the distinction be good and bad, not christian and non-believers.

    The Bible says you shouldn’t trust or marry non christians and should kill them. Can I say the Bible is Baloney? And only believe bits I want


  43. ========== Cut
    What the Bible says about Non-Christians

    They are without God.
    “Whosoever … abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.” — 2 John 9

    They are all antichrists.
    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” — 2 John 7

    They should be shunned. Neither marry nor be friends with them.
    “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? … Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.” — 2 Cor.6:14-17

    They should be killed.
    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.” — Dt.13:6-10

    ======= End Cut


  44. Wunna Christian frauds answer Kiki! Kiki you are showing up the Bible and the people who follow it. Many will not be pleased, and many will counter attack with verses from the said book. Many will place plasters on these sores and refuse to admit that it is true or their PERFECT GOD made a mistake.


  45. LOL @ Kiki
    That is not what the bible says about “non Christians”…..it is what is says about “non-believers” …..or non bushmen 🙂

    Almost all Christians are non-believers and there are some non-Christians who are believers.

    Whosoever abideth not in the doctrine of Christ (“love God and love others as you love yourself”) is a non-believer.
    Also…
    Anyone who disputes that God gave up his deity and became a man called Jesus, is clearly absent of the Holy Spirit and is a deceiver (non-believer seeking to mislead others)

    Your last quote is related to a different dispensation, but speaks of the critical importance of recognizing threats to the very fundamental purpose of living, and of dealing with such threats.
    Basically the message, framed in the context of old testiment times, is that ” this thing is so important and valuable, that even if your own flesh were to threaten its loss, you should exterminate that threat”

    In context, it establishes an ULTIMATE value for a successful spiritual life.


  46. @ Baffy,
    …..note that Bushie was talking to Kiki.
    As GP posted earlier;
    **********
    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
    **********
    …there was no expectation that this would make any sense whatsoever to. You….. 🙂


  47. Kiki,

    “I was recently told of an African tribe that does the most beautiful thing.”

    “When someone does something hurtful and wrong, they take the person to the center of town, and the entire tribe comes and surrounds him. For two days they’ll tell the man every good thing he has ever done.”

    “The tribe believes that every human being comes into the world as GOOD, each of us desiring safety, love, peace, happiness.”

    “But sometimes in the pursuit of those things people make mistakes. The community sees misdeeds as a cry for help.”

    “They band together for the sake of their fellow man to hold him up, to reconnect him with his true Nature, to remind him who he really is, until he fully remembers the truth from which he’d temporarily been disconnected: “I AM GOOD”

    THE FACT OF SIN, that permeates the entire human race.

    “For there is NOT A JUST MAN UPON THE EARTH that doeth GOOD, and SINNETH NOT” ( Eccel. 7:20)

    “As it is written ( In God’s Word) there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no NOT ONE” ( Rom. 3:10).

    “For ALL have SINNED, and come SHORT of the Glory of God” ( Rom. 3:23).

    “The heart ( desires, plans, etc) is DECEITFUL above ALL things and DESPERATELY WICKED* who can know it? ( Only God!) (Jer. 17:9,10)

    “But we are ALL as UNCLEAN thing, and ALL our righteousness, (supposed humanistic GOODNESS) are as FILTHY RAGS (Before a Holy, Righteousness God) and we do FADE as a leaf; and our INIQUITIES (Not tribal or human so-called GOODNESS!) like a wind have TAKEN US AWAY” ( Isa. 64:6).


  48. @Baffy
    you gine tek dat from Bushie doh? ya getting soft man. lol.

    @islandgal
    cross your fingers and close your eyes. let’s hope not!


  49. You know Obs, to me to refer to oneself as a Bush anything would clearly suggest that one seeks to be close to the earth and be a “natural man”. You see me, in my underwear, one garment shy of nakedness, as I work from home, makes me a “natural man” too. Now I don’ claim exceptional wisdom, as a “natural man”, but Bush does …

    HA HA HA … I should be a lawyer … HA HA HA


  50. No one, who brings an occultic, ‘spiritualist’ mindset background, to their understanding of God’s divinely Inspired Word, the Scriptures, can, or will ever, be able to ‘Rightly’ divide’ interpret His Word.

    We are seriously warned in God’s Word, to be on guard against False Interpreters,

    In II Corinthians, refers to those who are GUILTY of “handling the Word of God deceitfully ” (Amplified – “adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God.”

    Ephesians 4:14, speak of those who, in relation to Doctrine, use “sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to DECEIVE” ( Amplified – “TWIST and misconstrue to their OWN DESTRUCTION, just as they DISTORT and misinterpret the rest of the Scriptures.”)

    These references point out that there ARE those who willfully and deliberately interpret the Scriptures FALSELY, thus damning their own souls, and the souls of those who follow them. These are “ever learning and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH” ( II Timothy 3:7)


  51. Again, as I’ve written on BU before:

    “Now the natural man” ( I Cor. 2: 14) ( psuchikos de anthropos) Note absence of article (The) here. ” A natural man” an spiritually unregenerate man, that is, anyone who IS NOT ‘Born Again’ Justified, Saved, no matter how so-called, ‘spiritual’ he claims to be, especially ‘IF’ they are of the endarkened world of ‘spiritualism’ and its hosts of other related ‘isms’ from Satan’s kingdom of LIES, deceit and utter falshood, always masquerading under the banner of some ‘deeper’ esoteric, reality, these deceived ‘spiritualists’ does NOT accept, rejects, REFUSES to accept the things of the Spirit of God, (Why not?) because, “…they are FOOLISHNESS to him, nor can he KNOW them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (v. 14b)

    These ‘psuchikoi’ men are incapable of rendering a decision, for they are unable to recognise the facts. They judge by the ‘psuche’ ( mere animal nature) rather than by the ‘pneuma’ the renewed spirit, that only the ‘spiritually’ regenerate man has, as THE HOLY SPIRIT, He now dwells IN the redeemed children of God, and HE* (NOT IT) as an IT cannot, as HE does, guides, leads, and teaches them, as HE* inspired the Word of God, and HE* IS* the One who Comforts, and “IT” cannot comfort, but such are those who ‘willfully and deliberately adulterate, TWIST and misconstrue, distort, to their own utter destruction.”


  52. @ Zoe
    Why don’t you crawl back under your rock nuh? You got clothes hang out and looking fuh rain….? Tek care yuh don’t get a storm yuh….

    It is Kiki you should worry about. He is the one who posted the following straight from your bible….
    *************
    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” — 2 John 7
    ***************
    Perhaps after one of your exegesis exercises you may wish to explain to Kiki why YOU do not confess that Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH.
    ..or perhaps you can change your tune now and rebuke your recently argued “God-Man” theology.

    LOL
    You calling Bushie a false interpreter and YOUR BIBLE calling you a deceiver and an antiChrist…. 🙂


  53. Bush Tea:

    “It is Kiki you should worry about. He is the one who posted the following straight from your bible….”
    *************
    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” — 2 John 7
    ***************
    “Perhaps after one of your exegesis exercises you may wish to explain to Kiki why YOU do not confess that Jesus Christ came IN THE FLESH, (STUPID man, that Jesus DID COME IN THE FLESH, is the Core teaching of Historic, Apostolic Doctrine, to which I wholeheartedly ascribe and contend for) that why HE IS* the God-Man, moron!) .
    ..or perhaps you can change your tune now and rebuke your recently argued “God-Man” theology.”

    Bush Tea, Man you are so inverted, with your FEET so firmly PLANTED in the Mid-Air, of ‘Spiritualistic’ ignorance and deception, and quite ‘naturally’ (pseuchikos de anthropos) your parachute is attached to your FEET, heading, HEAD long FIRST into….you know what…!!!

    LOL
    You calling Bushie a false interpreter and YOUR BIBLE calling you a deceiver and an antiChrist…. (No Bush Man, you are among those of the Antichrist…DENYING that Jesus DID come in the flesh, the complete Hypostatic Union of GOD and MAN, the God-Man!


  54. @ girl wid sword out
    Put up de sword and guh long before yuh get cut….. 🙂

    @ Zoe
    Wait, you family to Dottin or what?
    What the hell is a God-Man?
    De scripture thing say that if yuh don’t believe that Jesus came as a man yuh is an ANTI CHRIST. It ain’t Bushie who say so….

    A god man or a man-god is NOT a man
    Therefore YOU are an anti Christ ( according to YOUR bible not Bushie)

    Now put up YOUR sword and follow the bored girl do…. Or go long back under your rock…


  55. @ BAFBFP
    Why you don’t leave the girl and she sword? You ain’t hear Dottin say that the DNA evidence did NOT prove you innocent of the rape of the two English women……
    You better watch tail yuh… 🙂


  56. Bush Tea, You real ignorant man, true to form, a classic ‘spiritualist’ Obeah man!

    “In the beginning WAS the WORD, (Christ) and the WORD (Christ) was with God, and the WORD (Christ) WAS GOD.”

    “He was in the beginning WITH God. ALL things were MADE through HIM, and without HIM* (Christ) NOTHING was made that was made”

    “And the LIGHT ( Christ) shines in the DARKNESS, and the DARKNESS (Where BT et al reside) did NOT comprehend it.”

    “And the WORD (Jesus) BECAME FLESH ( Sinless Man)and dwelt among us, and we BEHELD His Glory as of the only begotten of the Father, FULL of Grace and TRUTH.”

    “For the law was given through Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came through Jesus Christ.” (John1:1,2, 5,14).

    “De scripture thing say that if yuh don’t believe that Jesus came as a man yuh is an ANTI CHRIST. It ain’t Bushie who say so”….

    “A god man or a man-god is NOT a man
    Therefore YOU are an anti Christ ( according to YOUR bible not Bushie)”


  57. Bush

    You see why I ain’ gun do like Carl ‘Sniper Mout’ Moore suggest and nuse my real name … De police ’bout hey could be desperate to lock up somebody fah rapin’ de poor White women … and de way you carrying on is sufficient to attract attention from these desperate people and they would be banging down my door by now … HA! You is a dangerous campaigner … HA HA HA


  58. It has now been determined that 21 December 2012 will not be the end of the world as we know it, there was a transposition error made in the date. The corrected information is that the date that is earmarked for the ending of the world as we know it is 21 December 2021 …

    (By that time a lotta wunna gun to be in Arizona so why should wunna care … HA HA HA … HA HA HA … Only Kiki, David, Cas and yours truly gun be lef’ …)


  59. Further to Bush Tea’s spiritualism, also akin to Gnosticism, that salvation by mental enlightenment, which came only to elite spiritual ‘initiates’ just like BT’s reference to ‘brain power’ not to ordinary rank and file Christians, and exalted speculation above the basic tenets of the Gospel. It WAS this very heresy that crept into the early NT Church, and John’s very purpose in writing then, was to EXPOSE the heresy of the FALSE teachers, just like Bush Tea, and to confirm the faith of the true believers.

    Therefore, John under inspiration of The Holy Spirit, sternly rebukes these teachers of FALSE doctrine, like BT, he refers to the teaching as DECEITFUL ( 2:26: 3:7) and to the teachers as “false prophets” ( 4:1), LIARS ( 2:22), and antichrist ( 2:18, 22; 4:3)

    This heresy was a forerunner of second-century Gnosticism which DENIED the Deity of Jesus Christ, which John wrote vigorously against this erroneous Gnosticated heresy, that Bush Man holds to, unable to grasp the Incarnation of the eternal Word, Jesus, taking on, and becoming flesh, Man, but never ceasing to be God.

    So, John writes, “Beloved do NOT believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits, whether they ARE of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (4:1)

    Now, here is the test of that John gives to determine a true man of God, vs a False prophet, like Bush Tea et al.

    “By THIS you KNOW the Spirit of God. Every spirit that CONFESSES that JESUS CHRIST, (The Eternal Word of God) HAS COME in the flesh ( became Man) IS of God. AND every spirit that DOES NOT confess that Jesus Christ has come in the FLESH (became Man, Incarnate Deity) is NOT of God. And this IS* (like Bush Tea) the spirit of the ANTICHRIST, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” (4: 2,3).

    “We are of God. He who KNOWS God hears us: he who IS NOT of God does NOT hear us. By this we KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR.” (v.6)

    Bush Man, you ARE emphatically and blatantly of the ‘spirit’ of ERROR, falsity, and down right heresy!


  60. David | December 27, 2012 at 5:04 PM |
    @Caswell

    Are you sure you want to do this?

    Lord haf mercy
    Chri’t haf mercy

    David

    The above is your first comment on this post. I understand what you meant: I have opened a cuckoo’s cage.


    • @Caswell

      Don’t you ever wonder if PhD’s and others trained in theology can be locked in disagreement about biblical doctrines, the implication of such for the ordinary mortal?


  61. David | December 29, 2012 at 9:13 PM |
    re Don’t you ever wonder if PhD’s and others trained in theology can be locked in disagreement about biblical doctrines, the implication of such for the ordinary mortal?

    No one trained in theology is locked in disagreement about biblical doctrines on BU. lol
    I have NEVER found ANYONE trained in theology to be locked in disagreement about biblical doctrines on BU. lol


  62. DO you really think that TB is trained in theology?.
    Do you realize also that I no longer lock horns with anyone on BU on anything? Waste of time.
    If I told you that 2+2=6, would you waste time arguing with me.
    I think Zoe should stop wasting his time too presenting sound exegesis here.
    Every discipline has its rules and regulations and guidelines.
    On BU, anything goes.
    Better to let things go


    • @GP

      You are aware that all religions have PhD advocates? What does it say? Religion is one of the most debated subjects, why blame the BU intelligentsia?


  63. David, my friend QUID DIXI SCRIPSIQUE, DIXI SCRIPSIQUE,

    I will send you something on diabetes soon for the intelligentsiae to debate.


  64. @ GP, my brother, there are obviously many quiet observers and onlookers out there, if one soul comes to Jesus for salvation, the angels in Heaven rejoice, in such a wide audience, one never knows who is learning and maybe choosing to repent and come to Jesus!

    I only use the BT’s and others as an opportunity to share the Good News of Christ! Never a waist of time, not for me!

    Blessings in Jesus Mighty and Matchless Name, Bro’.


  65. Zoe
    In a world where there are many jokers pretending to know the Bible, yours is a breath of fresh air. Recently, you gave a good exegesis on the concept of the adoption of sons, and a very good systematic review of the doctrine of the HOLY SPIRIT.


  66. @zoe
    You really tink u’ve shared good news?? You got d average joe confused as france. By “fighting” people who you think are wrong you’ve lost the opportunity to pull others in!

    every discipline has its rules and regulatuons (GP). Evangelism, ministry and ministering is no different. Regardless of “theological knowledge” or “spiritual enlightenment”.

    Just observing


  67. @ Observing
    There is a written rule about arguing with fools and Bushie has reluctantly decided to enforce it with Zoe.
    Rather that seek to intelligently discuss and debate issues, he post long “cut and paste” which skirt the issues – and then add his own insults for good measure (to show how Christ-like he is)…. He actually reminds Bushie of GP when he get vex and use another handle to curse and abuse bloggers who he thinks offends him… LOL

    This latest issue could not be simpler.
    HIS bible says that we can identify an anti-Christ by the fact that they deny that Jesus came to earth as a Man…NOT Bushie – HIS BIBLE!!

    – Zoe says that Jesus was not a man, he was a God-Man. Now Cud dear, what the hell is a God-Man? God is GOD! Man is a physical corrupt being made in the image of God… How could Jesus have been BOTH? ….besides, if he continued to be GOD, then what was the big deal about John 3:16? Stupseeeee!!

    Now mind you, BUSHIE all along tried to explain that Jesus was a MAN, just like Bushie…. Lo and behold his Bible says that makes Bushie a BELIEVER…. 🙂
    YET, Zoe comes on the blog cussing and fuming and calling Bushie the anti-Christ….. Go figure…..

    Don’t mind GP
    …the poor fellow is still trying to figure out why Jesus spoke to his listeners in Parables with the EXPRESSED INTENT of misleading them (to ensure that they did not understand what he was saying….)

    …..and why God deliberately and carefully created Satan. 🙂 …he won’t re-enter the fray anytime soon, he is confined to medical issues, and brief stints of praising the anti-Christ Zoe (according to the Bible, NOT Bushie… LOL)


  68. Bush Tea”

    “- Zoe says that Jesus WAS NOT A MAN, he was a God-Man. Now Cud dear, what the hell is a God-Man? ” The Word of God states, In Christ, “DWELLETH ALL the FULNESS of the GODHEAD (Deity) BODILY” In Jesus Christ! (Col. 2:9 with 1:19) That makes HIM* God and Man = The God-Man! “Great is the mystery of Godliness ” God WAS MANIFESTED (Jesus)in the FLESH” (I Tim. 3:16) God is GOD! Man is a physical corrupt being made in the image of God…” Jesus WAS NOT in a physical corrupt body, His Sinless conception by The Holy Spirit, made the Incarnation of His DEITY a miraculous event! “How could Jesus have been BOTH?” That IS* the miracle of the Incarnation, “God (the Son, Jesus) was MANIFESTED in the flesh, Man and God….”besides, if he continued to be GOD, then what was the big deal about John 3:16? Stupseeeee!! John 3:16, Without being BOTH Sinless humanity, MAN, and still being GOD, two natures in one Person, there would be NO Salvation for mankind!

    Now mind you, BUSHIE all along tried to explain that Jesus was a MAN, just like Bushie…. Lo and behold his Bible says that makes Bushie a BELIEVER….
    YET, Zoe comes on the blog cussing and fuming and calling Bushie the anti-Christ….. Go figure…..


  69. The Deity of Jesus Christ, that He NEVER stopped being God, the Son, is clearly witnessed to in the Scriptures.

    (1) He existed in the beginning as the Word, as God ( John 1:1 with Genesis 1:1; Philippians 2:6; Rev. 19:13)
    (2) He was with God, the Father ( John 1:1)
    (3) He was God, the Son ( John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8,10; I John 5:20; Titus 2:13).
    (4) He IS* God manifest in the FLESH, as Man ( John 20:28; I Tim 3:16; Col 2:9; 1:19; Acts 20:28; Heb 1:8)
    (5) He is the Mighty God ( Isa. 9:6; Psa. 45:6))
    (6) He is Immanuel, God with us on earth ( Isa. 7:14; Matt 1:23)
    (7) He IS* the Word (God) made flesh, Man ( John 1:14-18)
    (8) He is the True God ( 1 John 5:20; with Titus 2:13; Rom 9:5)
    (9) He IS* the Great God ( Titus 2:13)
    (10) He IS* our God and Saviour ( 11 Peter 1:1)
    (11) He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father ( Phil 2: 5-7)
    (12) He IS* the only wise God ( Jude 25)


  70. Zoe
    Just in the off chance that some one else reads this thread and concludes from your gibberish that the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST is a load of baloney, Bushie will explain a few things…..
    But you need not rebut them, we now know that you have been tagged as an anti Christ by the bible….and by Kiki…. LOL

    Jesus was a Man. FULL STOP. He probably had a penis, two feet and likely suffered a bit from halitosis….

    When he was baptized by John the Baptist, who had been SPECIALLY sent to facilitate this ceremony, the Holy Spirit of God descended upon him in a special baptism. From that point, Jesus could be said to possess the “fullness of God”.

    Once he had completed his mission, this Holy Spirit became freely available to his disciples who THEN showed the kind of understanding of the GOSPEL that had clearly eluded them previously.

    The point is that even Bushie, given that same Holy Spirit, can ALSO be said to possess the fullness of God…. Indeed, Jesus himself says that THIS IS HOW YOU CAN IDENTIFY A BELIEVER…..they reflect traits of Godliness (or wear the armor of God). …Things like LOVE, long suffering, patience, peace,…but ALSO wisdom and understanding.

    Bushie keep telling you and GP that THIS IS HOW SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING IS GLEANED…..not by Long study and exegesis, but by having a spiritual mind developed in the individual….

    Now kindly stop posting nonsense that you clearly do not understand. …..Why not try posting something on Dottin….? You may be able to explain his mindset since it is somewhat like yours..


  71. Divine Worship Given to Jesus. Only God is to be worshipped, any worship given to any one, other than to God, IS* declared in His Word, to be BLASPHEMY and IDOLATRY

    Yet, Divine Worship was given to AND received by Jesus, He never refused Worship, This is in great contrast to other men who absolutely REFUSED worship of other men, as did the elect angels. Only self-deified men accepted worship, blasphemy and gross idolatry of others as seen in Roman Emporers et al pagan societies. ( Acts 10:26; 14: 15; Rev. 22:9.

    Therefore, to Worship Jesus as God would be blasphemy and idolatry if He were not Deity, God of very God.

    The Scriptures testify that Divine Worship was given to Him, because He was/is, God incarnate, Man, sinless Man, and fully God, Deity.

    1. He is worshipped by angels ( Heb. 1:6; Isa. 6: 1-5; Rev. 5: 12-14).
    2. He is worshipped by men ( Matt 8:2; 15: 25-28; 28: 17; Luke 24: 51-52; Acts 1:24; 7: 59-60; I Thess 3:11; John 9:38; Phil 2: 9-11; Psa. 45: 11; I Cor. 1:2)
    3. He is worshipped by all creatures ( Rev. 5:13)
    4. He is prayed to as praying to God ( Acts 1:24; 7: 59-60)
    5. He is honoutred equally with the Father God ( John 5:23; Rev. 1:5-6; Heb. 1:6-8)


  72. Bush Tea, Man you go from sublime ignorance of God’s Word, to blasphemous idolatry.

    “The point is that even Bushie, given that same Holy Spirit, can ALSO be said to possess the fullness of God….”

    NOWHERE in Scriptures does it EVER say, or indicate, that ANYONE, other than Jesus, POSSESSED the FULLNESS of God, the Godhead.”

    “Indeed, Jesus himself says that THIS IS HOW YOU CAN IDENTIFY A BELIEVER…..they reflect traits of Godliness (or wear the armor of God). …

    Having the indwelt presence of the Person of The Holy Spirit, to enable the Justified believer to reflect these Christian traits of Jesus, DOES NOT make any of us, “posses the fullness of God” This is arrogant, blasphemy…just like you believe that YOU…” Can be God…” Utter, unscriptural NONSENSE, and rank, gross IDOLATRY. The LIE Satan FIRST propagated to Eve in the Garden of Eden. LIES from the Pit of Hell, by the father of ALL lies, Satan!

    “Things like LOVE, long suffering, patience, peace,…but ALSO wisdom and understanding.”

    Again, these fruit of The Holy Spirit, manifested in the True, Sanctified believer, DOES NOT make any of them, “…posses the fullness of God…” as NO ONE, as a redeemed child of God, IN Christ Jesus, can EVER possess the ABSOLUTE FULLNESS of the Godhead, as DID The Lord Jesus Christ, as Sinless Man, all the while NEVER ceasing to be God Incarnate, the absolutely PERFECT, God-Man, God of very God!


  73. Zoe yuh idiot! Where you went school doh? Bushie thought that GP say you is a PhD….. Stupseeee

    Nobody disputes that the entity known as Jesus was “the WORD”, and was with God in the beginning, and created all things…

    Nobody disputes that the entity known as Jesus died and was resurrected and became the first born of many begotten sons of God….indeed ” The First Begotten Son”

    THE POINT HERE is that for 33 Years, this entity existed as a HUMAN BEING (Became flesh).

    So if you go and rake up quotes from all over the place what will it prove? You get your PhD from the same place as George Brathwaite? Stupseeee

    Only quotes relevant the the 33 years of Jesus’ life are relevant


  74. Bush Tea, I challenge YOU, here on BU, to show me, where I EVER said that Jesus was NOT Man! You are a DISTORTER of TRUTH, a stranger to the Truth of God and His Word, Jesus, the Logos!

    Don’t YOU ever, claim I said something that I NEVER WROTE on BU!

    From the very beginning, I have steadfastly sought, to show from the Scriptures, that JESUS WAS/IS, MAN, fully and SINLESSLY MAN, in His humanity, AND, also as to His DEITY* God Incarnate, God of very God, as the Scriptures, His Word, the Bible, reveals!

    Stop lying, twisting and perverting what I NEVER said,deviously convoluted to cover your OWN ignorance of the FACTS and TRUTH!


  75. @ zOE
    I noticed that in an earlier post you stressed correctly that John in his Gospel and Epistles wrote to refute the error of the ARIAN GNOSTICS, who believed that Jesus was a mere man upon whom the Spirit came at his baptism- at which he was identifed as the Lamb of God [first predicted as such in Exodus 12] and left him at his crucifixion. As such John stresses that Christ was a man throughout, as well as God.

    As you know, where as John tends to use the present indicative, when he changes from this tense to the aorist, for example, one needs to sit up and ponder.

    Paul of course in Hebrews 2;14 also indicated that Jesus came in the flesh. Again one must notice the voice of the verb to appreciate the nugget in this verse

    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;,

    Long before the Roman church was established, the church had dispelled the errors that Arius and his followers were spouting. The conclusion of the church at that time was set out in what is retained as THE APOSTLES CREED THE NICENE CREED AND THE CREED OF ATHANATIUS.


  76. Wait GP?!?
    Bushie thought you were sticking to medicine LOLOL….or you feel Zoe need some help…LOL ?

    Tell Zoe for Bushie that the NATURE of God is such that there can be NO SUCH THING as a “God Man”.
    If Jesus retained the qualities of God, then HE WAS GOD.
    If he retained the attributes of God, THEN HE COULD NOT DIE on no cross…

    ….but obviously, in order to fulfill the requirement that “through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;,”…..HE had to GIVE UP HIS GODLY ATTRIBUTES and be born and live as a MAN (become flesh) in order to DIE to overcome the power of death.

    Now that you understand that, read John3:16 again….. If Jesus was still God while on earth, what exactly would the father have sacrificed ” that whosoever believeth shall have eternal life….”

    If Jesus was still God (both God and Man) what would have been the big deal about the miracles or even the crucifixion? That would have been no big thing for a supernatural being…..

    By now the two of wunna MUST realize that wunna up sandy ground…..

    But this is mere petty stuff….wunna really need to hear about the GOOD NEWS (Gospel) that Jesus, and later, his disciples preached.

    Now THAT will cause Zoe (and all other anti-Christi) to blow fuses.. 🙂


  77. Bush Tea”

    “- Zoe says that Jesus WAS NOT A MAN, he was a God-Man. Now Cud dear, what the hell is a God-Man? ”

    The Word of God states, In Christ, “DWELLETH ALL the FULNESS of the GODHEAD (Deity) BODILY” In Jesus Christ! (Col. 2:9 with 1:19) That makes HIM* God and Man = The God-Man! “Great is the mystery of Godliness ” God WAS MANIFESTED (Jesus)in the FLESH” (I Tim. 3:16)

    “God is GOD! Man is a physical corrupt being made in the image of God…”

    Jesus WAS NOT in a physical corrupt body, His Sinless conception by The Holy Spirit, made the Incarnation of His DEITY a miraculous event!

    “How could Jesus have been BOTH?”

    That IS* the miracle of the Incarnation, “God (the Son, Jesus) was MANIFESTED in the flesh, Man and God….

    ”besides, if he continued to be GOD, then what was the big deal about John 3:16? Stupseeeee!!”

    John 3:16, Without being BOTH Sinless humanity, MAN, and still being GOD, two natures in one Person, there would be NO Salvation for mankind!

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to DENY or REJECT the truth of the Deity of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in the light of those Scriptures substantiating His Deity, God of very God, AND, His Sinless humanity, being a MAN, in the FLESH.

    Jesus, the Son of God IS* INDEED Deity; GOD MANIFESTED IN* the FLESH. Thus, the TRUE believer, can only exclaim with Thomas “My LORD and my GOD.” ( John 20:28 with Isaiah 25: 9).


  78. Without God, the Son, Jesus Christ, becoming Man, there would be NO reconcilation, with God, hence no salvation for lost humanity.

    God, therefore, BECAME man, in the Person of His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, as Only God, in Sinless humanity, who Jesus was/is, could redeem sinful, lost mankind, as Jesus’ DEITY, offered His SINLESS humanity to God the Father, on Calvary’s Cross for man’s full redemption.

    Of course, Gnostics/spiritualists/occultists et al spiritually blinded men, would NEVER begin to understand, why Great IS* the mystery of Godliness “God (the Son, Jesus) WAS MANIFESTED in the FLESH.”
    (I Tim 3:16)

    “And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the “Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end” (Luke 1:30-33; cf. Matt. 2:2, 6; Luke 1:49-54; 68-75).

    Strange as it may seem, it was not enough that the second person of the Godhead was truly God–He must also be man in order to fulfill God’s purposes and His promises to man. The reason is that God’s purposes and God’s promises were made to man, as man. It was man who was made in God’s image, and who was destined to rule over His creation. It was a man who must fulfill God’s purposes and promises. Fallen man neither could nor would fulfill God’s purposes, due to his sin. Thus, a new man, a “second Adam” must intervene in human history. This man must also be free from all sin. To fulfill the scriptures He must also be divine (we shall study this more in our next lesson). In order for God’s purposes and promises to be fulfilled, the incarnation must occur. When the incarnation did take place, those who witnessed the event were assured that God’s reign (and thus the reign of the faithful) would now be established on the earth.

    The importance of the humanity of Christ (thus, the incarnation) is underscored by the writer to the Hebrews in the second chapter of his epistle. He is writing of the superiority of Christ to the angels. In verses 6-8, he turns to Psalm 8, applying the verses which speak of the dignity and glory of man, in that he has been appointed to “rule over the works of Thy hands” (v. 7b). Not only is the writer using this psalm to speak of Christ, but to speak of Him who will reign as man. In verses 4 and 5 the author goes on to show that it was necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ to take on human flesh in order to minister to His brethren. The Messiah who was to reign, would do so as man.

    In the 10th chapter of the epistle to the Hebrews the point is clearly made that the Lord Jesus, of necessity, had to add humanity to His deity:

    Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me” (Heb. 10:5).

    Do you see the importance of the incarnation to the future hopes of both Israelites and the church? The return of the Lord and the establishment of His kingdom will only occur for men when God does so as man. When our Lord added humanity to His deity, He did so for all eternity. It is as the God-Man that He will return and He will reign, and we with Him. Do away with the incarnation and both the purposes and the promises of God are worthless.

    (4) The Present Ministry of Christ is also One Which has Greater Meaning Because of His Incarnation.

    Our salvation, accomplished in the past by the death of Christ on the cross and fully realized in His second coming and reign is contingent upon His humanity. In between the past and the future there is yet another ministry which our Lord carries on as man:

    For there is one god, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time (I Tim. 2:5-6, emphasis mine).

    At the present time, while the Son waits for the Father’s word to return to the earth and subdue His enemies (cf. I Cor. 15:20-28; Rev. 5). In this present time the Lord Jesus is our advocate with the Father (I John 2:1). His present high priestly role has special relevance to us because He has come to the earth as man, making Him a compassionate and understanding advocate and source of strength and encouragement:

    Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted (Heb. 2:17-18).

    Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need (Heb. 4:14-16).

    The consequences of denying or rejecting the incarnation of our Lord are substantial, as we have seen. This is due, in part, because our Lord’s incarnation is eternal. What He became in the manger centuries ago, is what He shall forever be–the God-Man. To deny the incarnation is to deny the virgin birth, the miracles of our Lord, His substitutionary atonement, and His bodily resurrection. In effect, to deny the incarnation is to deny all. To accept the incarnation is to believe in all:

    It is from misbelief, or at least inadequate belief, about the incarnation that difficulties at other points in the gospel story usually spring. But once the incarnation is grasped as a reality, these other difficulties dissolve . . . . Once we grant that Jesus was divine, it becomes unreasonable to find difficulty in any of this; it is all of a piece, and hangs together completely. The incarnation is in itself an unfathomable mystery, but it makes sense of everything else that the New Testament contains.15

    If, indeed, the Bible is correct in teaching us that our destiny is inseparably linked to the person of the Lord Jesus Christ (which Romans 5 and many other texts emphatically demonstrate), then to deny the incarnation is to undermine the very core of our faith.

    The Importance of the Principle of Incarnation

    Incarnation is not just a debate about something which took place 2,000 years ago in history. The issues at hand in the incarnation of our Lord are matters of principle which have very practical ramifications. The broader issue of the incarnation is the relationship between the divine and the human, between the sovereign working of God and the human responsibility of man.

    Let me attempt to illustrate what I mean by referring to the issue of the inspiration and authority of the Scriptures. The real question lying behind the issue of the inspiration and infallibility of the Scriptures is whether anything which is dependent upon human participation can be said to be divine and without error. To deny the incarnation is to deny the deity or the humanity (or both) of our Lord. Such a denial is to conclude that it is impossible for our Lord to be both undiminished deity and sinless humanity at the same time. To conclude this about the living Word is to necessitate doing so with the written word.

    The underlying principle here is the relationship between the divine and the human. One of the most pressing problems for the Christian is how can God (the divine) indwell and manifest Himself in the human (me). To deny that the divine and human can be joined together in any practical or personal way is to deny the essence of our salvation and sanctification, for when we are born again we become one with God and He with us. To live the spiritual life is to be joined with Him in whatever we do. The Christian is urged to exert himself because of the divine enablement which God has provided, thus merging divinity and humanity, divine power manifested in human weakness (cf. Rom. 12:1-2; II Pet. 1:3-11).

    The Importance of the Implications of the Incarnation

    The doctrine of the incarnation implies several truths which the Bible elsewhere verifies. Let us conclude by considering what the incarnation of our Lord implies to us, which we dare not ignore.

    (1) The Doctrine of the Incarnation Informs us of the Depravity of Man and of His Desperate Condition Apart from Divine Intervention.

    Hopefully it has become clear that the incarnation involved a great condescension on the part of the second person of the Godhead. While there was much humiliation in His death, there was also humiliation in His incarnation (cf. II Cor. 8:9). The fact that God was willing to “stoop” to identifying with man in the incarnation of our Lord is evidence to the utter fallenness of mankind. Surely God would never have considered the incarnation unless there was no possible means by which man could save himself. The incarnation implies what the first three chapters of the Book of Romans boldly asserts–that man was totally, irreversibly, lost, if left to himself. Man neither could, nor would, choose to save himself.

    The point is simply to be stated in this way: if the cure requires drastic measures, the ailment is severe. No one would conceive of allowing the doctor to remove a limb to cure an infection which could be treated by antibiotics. But if the ailment were a cancer that would kill the patient, then a limb is gladly sacrificed to preserve the life. No cure is more drastic than that of the incarnation and the cross. Man’s problem of sin is indeed fatal.

    (2) The Doctrine of the Incarnation Informs us of God’s Desire and His Ability to Save Fallen Man.

    If we would wish to attempt to fathom the love of God for fallen man, let us ponder the wonder of the incarnation. While it is usually to the cross that we turn our attention to ponder the love of God, we must recognize that, as someone has said, “the wood of the cradle and the wood of the cross are the same.” The cradle was but the first step to the cross. And it is by that cradle that we should seek to ponder the willingness and the ability of God to save men from their sins.

    (3) The Doctrine of the Incarnation Warns us of the Folly of Rejecting
    Salvation in Christ and Substituting Our Own Efforts.

    I have suggested (and I acknowledge this logical argument may have its flaws) that if man were not hopelessly lost, God would hardly have sent his Son to the cradle or the cross. If the salvation of man takes such drastic measures as a cradle and a cross, surely God is rightly angered by man’s efforts to save himself and thereby rejecting the person and the work of God’s Son. Because God has chosen to save sinners by sending His only begotten Son, surely God is righteous to demand that men find salvation only in His Son. How foolish it is to seek to stand before God in any righteousness which rejects Jesus Christ, God incarnate.

    We shall shortly return to our study of the Book of Revelation. When we study chapters 6 and following we must agree with the writer to the Hebrews who has said (in a different context),

    For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the furry of fire which will consume the adversaries . . . . It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb. 10:26-27, 31).

    What a wonderful, and reassuring view of God we have in the cradle, and on the cross. But for those who refuse the Christ of the gospels, they must face the Christ of the Book of Revelation, Who will subdue His enemies.
    http://bible.org


  79. @ Zoe

    Stick to your Bible interpretation, dividing and exegising.
    Stay away from OBEAH. You know nothing about it. It is a higher science that your mind could not take. There was a time when it was widely practiced in the old country. Now the art is practiced by just a few. Just ask Millertheannanuki or Pachamamma.

    You ever heard of remote viewing? Well, I can do it.

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