@Zoe et al…
Any questions?
@Halsall, Really then, there is NO such, compact, air-tight, thing as, “The scientific method” as a defitional statement, but rather there is a cluster of practices and issues, that are used in a variety of contexts, and can be loosely called scientific methodologies? No!!!
Are there not more or less, about seven (7) aspects re an ‘Eclectic Model of Scientific Methodology’ within the established (so-called!) scientific community, and that major debates exist within each one of these seven areas. For example, not everyone agrees about how scientists should use these laws and ‘theories’ to explain things. This, obviously means, that several different views of ‘Scientific Methodology’ are possible!? No!
These seven aspects, re the eclectic model are: (1) the formation of scientific ideas, (2) the nature of scientific questions and problems, (3) the use of scientific ideas and scientific explanations, (4) the nature of scientific experiments, (5) the testing of scientific ideas ( scientific confirmation), (6) the nature of scientific ideas( laws and theories), and (7) the aims and goals of scientific ideas.
The salient and pertinent point, here, IS* that, an eclectic model of scientific methodology, shows that scientific methodology IS* a cluster of different* methodologies, and NOT* one single method worthy of the title “the scientific method.”!!??
CH, is this not true? Yes, or No!
@Zoe… “The salient and pertinent point, here, IS* that, an eclectic model of scientific methodology, shows that scientific methodology IS* a cluster of different* methodologies, and NOT* one single method worthy of the title “the scientific method.”!!?? CH,is this not true? Yes, or No!
It is true that the Scientific Method encompasses many things. I never said it didn’t.
Rather than being a hindrance, this is why the method is so powerful. Constantly attack any question from many different directions and techniques, and compare the results. If they don’t agree, there’s something wrong which must be investigated further.
What is fundamental in my mind is that no follower of the Scientific Method will say “I’m absolutely correct, and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.”.
Nor will any follower of the Scientific Method believe what they are told without scepticism, and always be willing to honestly examine new evidence.
Unlike, for example, those of the Blind Faith….
@ CH
“Unlike, for example, those of the Blind Faith….”
Like Zoe, the faithful follower of a collection of mythical stories, copied and abridged from other cultures especially the Sumerian and Egyptian.
I wonder what is Zoe’s position on the postulation that intelligent life (and more technologically proficient than humans) exists outside this solar system and could have possibly visited Earth in the past, and might just do so in the future.
From Zoe’s implied profound understanding and rigorous interpretation of the Judeo-Christian scripts, it would be appreciated if Zoe can shed some light (either by confirmation or denial) on the seriously-held view that both the books of Genesis & Ezekiel make obvious reference to extra-terrestrial beings visiting this planet and intermingling with early humans in more ways than one. (Sorry about the length of the paragraph!).
@Halsall, Is it not TRUE, that Evolutionary Materialism, (naturalism) has being presented to the world, as a FACT? Yes, or No?
Is it not TRUE, that Prof. Richard Dawkins, today’s most ardent, vehement, proponent, advocate of Darwinian Evolution, states openly, it is a FACT? Yes or No?
It is not TRUE, that text books, used in schools, colleges, etc, on Evo Mat, are presented to the students as FACT? Yes or No?
If it is correct, true, that Evo Mat, is defended by its most ardent exponents as FACT, which really has NO such empirical scientific evidence to support this contention, is it not then a BALANT* LIE* to to present such THEORY* as something factual? Is this not then, crass, gross, intellectual, scientific DISHONESTY?
CH, Can you please supply us with the evidence, and NOT some longwinded Wiki pseudo-science postulates, laced in conjucture, maybe’s, could be’s and the like, which do not add up to anything more than THEORIES* not FACTS!!!!
Again, we read, “As one studies evolutionist literature, one cannot help but notice in its practitioners both a lack of LOGIC and inability to weigh evidence properly. Legal experts have also noticed this. Some years ago Harvard trained Lawyer Norman Macbeth wrote a book, “Darwin Retried.’ After studying evolution for many years Macbeth, who is not a creationist, concluded that there were serious gaps in the evidence for evolution and ERRORS in the reasoning of evolutionists. He claimed that evolution itself has become a RELIGION. The alledged evidence for evolution, he charged, was NOT of the quality that would stand up in a court of law.” ( BONES of Contention, A Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils, p.26) Emphasis added.
Yes, Evo Mat, is for all intents and purposes, a blatant, philosophical IDEOLOGY, ( NOT SCIENCE!) of rampant ATHEISM, couched, veneered, CONVOLUTED* and THEN, presented in a maze, of pseudo- science, a terrible disservice to the principles of TRUE science, to say the very least.
“A similar conclusion was reached in a recent (1991) book, ‘Darwin of Trial’ by law professor Phillip E. Johnson ( University of California, Berkeley). Johnson describes himself as a Christian and a creationist, but not a biblical literalist. His book may be the most siginificant one to appear on the evolution debate in decades.”
“Johnson concludes that (1) evolution is grounded NOT on scientific fact, but on a philosophical belief called naturalism; (2) the belief that a large body of empirical evidence supports evolution is an ILLUSION; ( 3) evolution is itself a religion; (4) if evolution were a scientific hypothesis based upon a rigorous study of the evidence, it would have been abandoned long ago; and (5) since ATHEISM is a basic supposition in the evolutionary process, it CANNOT be drawn as a conclusion from it.”
“Evolutionists got the CART before the horse (Big Time!) Johnson states, “They first accepted evolution uncritically as a FACT. Then they scrambled for evidence to support it, without too much success.” (Ibid., pp.25,26) Emphasis added.
Halsall, no wonder then, there are so MANY conflicting, methodologies, disagreements, etc, etc, within the so-called, ‘The Scientific Method’ a blatant OXYMORON.
Sorry, Halsall, the burden of PROOF, rest with the Evo Mat, community, to disprove Creation, as the EVIDENCE, both scientifically, historically, logically and legally, is tremendously supportive of, special Creation, and they know this, that’s why Evo Mat is in such a state of flux, and such arrogant, intellectual dishonesty, as so DELUDEDLY displayed by your poster boy, Richard Dawkins!
@MLTannunnaki, BTW, the Sumerian and Egyptian religious cultures, were deeply rooted in a MAZE of Polytheistic, Pantheistic, Satanically inspired FALSE deities, and these ancient civilizations, as I mentioned before, ALL came under God’s judgment, utter ruination, bar none!
Historic Judeo/Christianity, IS* diametrically opposite to these POLYTHEISTIC cultures, where the One True, and Living God, of historic divine revelation, as contained in His* Word* the Bible, revealed Himself, as One God,(monotheism) not a multiplicity of non-existent gods, as found in Sumeria and Egypt, whose MYTHICAL, LIES, have no basis whatsoever, in any truth; all deadly IDOLATRY, which ultimately brought there downfall!
Wheras, the historic Judeo/Christian Worldview, IS* rooted, in historical, archeological, variable facts and evidence, confirming the varacity of HIS* Word, the Bible, not mythological fallacy, as found in Sumeria, Egypt et al civilizations.
I’ll get back later on to your other questions, the weather is not good, have to turn off the computer.
@ Zoe:
So you accept that these cultures referred to (by you) as “Satanically inspired” existed before the Judeo-Christian culture? My questions to you are:
• Who put these people on earth; i.e. who created them? The many gods they worshipped (Elohim) or the one god that you think Judeo-Christians worship?
• What did the Jews do to incur the wrath of Hitler (a professed Christian recognized by the then Pope) and paid the ultimate price? Did this happen because these “ungrateful” Jews refused to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour?
Are you telling us that Sumerian and Egyptian cultures/civilizations are not rooted in archaeological fact or historical evidence but only existed in mythological fallacies? I believe you might be holding the bull by the tail. The biblical story of Noah and the flood is just a reworking (in abridged format) of the epic of Gilgamesh and the flood hero Utnapishtim. As matter of “fact” (the word fact employed advisedly), the book of Genesis is a re-work of the Sumerian Creation story and other tales (you call them myths!). Now that we are on the book of Genesis, can you tell us who were the Sons of God mentioned at 6:2. I thought God (according to your assertions) has only one Son, that is your Lord and Saviour. Or did the earlier ones died through Filicide?
@Zoe: “Is it not TRUE, that Prof. Richard Dawkins, today’s most ardent, vehement, proponent, advocate of Darwinian Evolution, states openly, it is a FACT? Yes or No?
Yes.
And it is a fact. Evolution happens.
We of the Scientific Method also refer to the “Theory of Gravity”. And is it not a ***FACT*** that when you drop something with mass it falls to the ground? Or does that not happen for you?
The Catholic’s have come to terms with Evolution, and accepted that it occurs. Quoting Pope John Paul II:
In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points…. Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.
Why then, I must ask, do YOU Zoe have so much trouble accepting the FACT that evolution happens?
@Halsall, That Evolution is a fact, according to DELUDED LIAR* Dawkins & co, is like saying that HALSALL, is a Christian, who believes in Jesus Christ, as God’s Son, and Saviour and Lord.
Halsall, the empirical FACTS, from,
The Fossil Record – From Microorganisms to Fish, are VOID, DESTITUTE,
of any transitional, intermediates, confirming that NO EVOLUTION happened, as they were ALL Created!
The Fossil Record – From Fish to Reptiles, are VOID, DESTITUTE of any transitional, intermediates, NO EVOLUTION happened, they were ALL Created.
The Fossil Record- The Origin of Mammals, are DESTITUTE, VOID of any transitional, intermediates, NO EVOLUTION, ALL were Created.
The Origin of Man – Again, DESTITUTE, VOID of any transitional, intermediates- As MAN was CREATED by God.
Halsall, even though the fossil record has dealt a FATAL* BLOW* to evolutionary THEORY* the evolutionists have FUMBLED over the years to FABRICATE, and in some cases, present what appears at face value to be supposed transitions provided by fossils, and in some cases, they do appear impressive, and certainly seem so to students!
BUT, with the passage of time, whenever these so-called transitional fossil evidence, are CAREFULLY examined, by other HONEST scientists, as Dr. Gish, points out, “…we find that each example under the WEIGHT of accumulated EVIDENCE. Derek Ager, the late Professor of Geology at Swansea, Wales, and fervent anti-creationist, has said:”
“It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as a student, from Trueman’s ‘Ostrea/Gryphea’ to Carruther’s “Zaphrentis delanouei’ have NO been DEBUNKED. Similarly, my own experience of more than twenty years looking for evolutionary linenages among Mesozoic Brachiopoda has proved equally ELUSIVE.” (EVOLUTION: the fossils STILL say NO! P. 353, Emphasis added)
Halsall, there is NO fossil EVIDENCE for this LIE* HOAX* of evolutionary materialism, NONE, the Creation narrative account recorded in God’s Word, the Bible, IS* emphatically SUPPORTED, thousands of years AFTER the FACT*, by literally MILLIONS of FOSSILS, ALL of which, each and EVERY timde they are discovered, no matter where on earth, or in the sea, each and every time, regardless of the species, they ALL appear ‘ABRUPTLY’ that IS* fully and completely FORMED* exactly as they were Created, in the first place by Almighty God.
Yes, I’m fully aware of all the ‘fancy’ pseudo- scintific jargon that Evolutionists ‘create’ invent, such as ‘punctuated equilibrium’ theory, and a host of other LIES, deviously for their own agenda, to KEEP Almighty God, our Creator, OUT OF, their wicked Atheist mind-set.
No matter how many of these FALSE science ‘theories’ they come up with, the plain simple FACTS*, of MILLIONS of FOSSILS, repeatedly speak, in their eloquent SILENCE, loudly, that WE* were ALL Created by Almighty God, that’s WHY, we ALL appear, FULLY FORMED, no ‘transitional’ fossils will ever be found, as WE did NOT ‘Evolve’ we were Created.
Halsall, this is just scratching the surface of the FACTS, debunking evolution, and confirmimg Special Creation, from the FOSSIL EVIDENCE, all there for any honest person, to read and investigate.
Evolution THEORY, for that is what it IS* is the BIGGEST HOAX ever presented in the name of science!
@Zoe… I am tired of you never accepting a valid argument.
I think I have proven my point.
Unlike you.
Begone.
Halsall, NO LIE, (Evolution) is of the TRUTH, CREATION*
All you have PROVEN, is that you believe in a LIE* HOAX* that plainly makes YOU, a stranger to TRUTH, FACTS, and EVIDENCE!
“Professing themselves to be wise, they became FOOLS!” (Romans)
@ CH:
What can one do with the likes of Zoe? When a so-called well read person like Zoe can totally disregard scientific evidence and hold firm to the view that everything on this Earth (including humans and dinosaurs ) and by extension, everything in the Universe (stars & planets)were created in 7 days approx. 6,000 years ago there is no hope in hell or heaven. A person totally blinded by faith in a lie!
@MLTanunnaki, You are just another deceived* deluded* person, who, “…suppress the TRUTH in unrighteousness…nor were thankful, but became FUTILE* in their (YOUR) thoughts, and their (YOUR!) foolish hearts were DARKENED” ( Rom. 1: 18b, 21b, Emphasis added).
FUTILE (mataioo), with which CH, and the likes of YOU, are overflowingly filled with, means, ‘To make EMPTY* vain, FOOLISH, useless, confused. The word decsribes PERVERTED LOGIC, and IDOLATROUS presumption of those who do not honor God or show Him any gratitude for His blessings on humanity.
And yes, Almighty God, who CREATED the heavens and the earth, and ALL life forms, exactly as narrated in Genesis, through Jesus Christ, “For by Him (Jesus) ALL things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were CREATED through HIM (Jesus) and for Him. And He (Jesus) is BEFORE all things, and IN HIM* ALL things consist.”
Exegesis:
‘ALL things” ( ta panta) The Universe as in Rom. 11:35, it is repeated at the end of the verse. “In HIM were CREATED” (en autoi ektisthe) It establishes the PRIMACY of Christ in the work of Creation (16f) It is the constative aorist passive indicative (ektisthe) from (ktizo), old verb, to found, to CREATE ( Rom. 1:25). This central activity of Christ in the work of Creation is presented also in John 1:3 and Heb. 1:2. the whole of CREATIVE activity is summed up IN* Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. All earthly dignities are included. “Have been created” (ektistas) Perfect passive indicative of ‘ktizo,’ “STAND CREATED,” then, on Christ, far more than on gravity, as He created gravity. It IS* a Christo-centric Universe. “Through Him” (di’ autou). As the SUSTAINING agent. “Before ALL things” (pro panton) This stresses the precedence of Christ IN* time, and His preeminence as Creator are both stated sharply. See the claim of Jesus to ETERNAL timeless EXISTENCE in John 8: 58; 17:5. See also Rev. 23:13 where Christ calls Himself the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the Beginning (arche) and the End ( telos).
Now, the last word in verse 17, “…and IN* Him, ALL things CONSIST.”
Having Created the entire UNIVERSE, life forms, etc, etc, ALL of this, “ALL THINGS CONSIST.” (v.17
CONSIST, is from the Greek word, ‘sunesteken’ which means, ‘To place TOGETHER, and here to COHERE, to HOLD together. In other words, Jesus Christ, IS* the controlling and unifying ONE, that HOLDS every ATOM, proton, etc, etc, TOGETHER, in the ENTIRE Universe, Planets, Life on earth, and if He were to release HIS* Omnipotent, unifying Power, everything would go ‘PUFF’!!!
@ Zoe:
You can ramble, side step, engage in much circumlocution and obfuscate the issue as you much as you like.
But you have NOT responded to my point about the reference in Genesis Chapter 6vs. 2. or do you want me to repeat it here?
Why do you keep referring to “God” as “HIM”? Has it ever occurred to you that your god might just be a “SHE”? Have you ever heard about the “Divine Feminine”? Or are you so brainwashed by the sexist, anti-female so-called biblical (and Koranic) scholars and writers that seek to suppress the supreme spiritual role of women in the divine relationships between humans and their gods?
Who created the “God’ you refer to and his son Jesus? Please don’t say that “He is the Alpha & Omega and that HE was always here before everything”; According to your reasoning your god of the book of Genesis even TIME (which I believe is the only FORCE that has no beginning or ending and most of all- “No Opposite”. Everything else has an opposite, even your god (good) has an opposite the devil (of evil). Remember your god created Satan purposely to oppose him and to tempt ‘the man and especially the woman’ into sinning or so your bible says.
I was told as a child that Jesus mother was Mary (Isis). And that Jesus was conceived on 25th of March – 4 days after the Spring Equinox; was born on the 25th December – 4 days after the Winter solstice with the rebirth of Sun in the Northern Hemisphere and died (crucified) on an indeterminate (moving) date- depending on the fall of the first “SUNDAY” after the first FULL MOON after the Vernal Equinox. If this is not astrologically correct, don’t crucify me but condemn the Mother Church for promulgating these lies.
@MLTanunnaki, Get this straight, I DO NOT dance to your tune or drum beat, which IS* demonically instigated, who the HELL do you think you are?
I write sequentially, according to the ‘context’ of the subject matter, which YOU are unable to follow; NOT your abyss of neo-Afro-Centric, neo-pagan, incoherent NONSENSE!!
You want to know about the ‘Sons of God’ and the ‘Nephilim’ of Genesis, then get ‘The Nephilim and Pyramid of the Apocalypse’ by Dr. Patrick Heron and the American Prophecies by Michael Evans.
Futher, Demons are masquerading as “aliens” who are spreading the message that inhabitants of the earth can ‘evolve’ to be like them, and obtain transcendent powers. And, finally, the seed of the Serpent will COME; he will be a man who will be greater than his followers, who will understand sinister schemes, and shall rise UP, and become the Antichrist, to DECEIVE idiots like you, en mass!
@ Zoe:
Is that soliloquy of yours a way of dealing with your own demons? So you accuse me of being demonic? Remember the biblical injunction at Matthew 7:1-5!
“Who the HELL do you think you are?” Are these words emanating from the mouth of a bible bashing, Jesus-loving person who has already bought his or her insurance policy in Heaven? But you must remember, the only way to get there is through death and since your have allowed your policy to lapse by your failure to live by the teachings of your rabbi, Jesus.
Asking me to follow your logic about the authenticity of the bible as the original word of your god is like asking me to believe that the moon has its own light and that the reflection we see some nights from the Earth’s satellite is NOT from the SUN.
So you accept that the bible talks about the “Sons of God and the Nephilim” and by extension, according to you, aliens that come to earth to corrupt human beings.
But, Zoe, these demons were created by your God as mentioned in the bible. Remember your god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent! Unless you accept that the devil has as much power as your god since he or she (the devil) can also created beings diametrically opposed to those created by your god and in able to influence, control and lead astray the weaklings created by your god.
But, unlike CH, I will not abandon you and leave you to remain in the wilderness and in the pit of darkness but through exposure to knowledge you will se the LIGHT and like your story book character Saul on his way to Damascus to kill of some of the followers a cult but was intercepted by the beam of an alien spacecraft: “I was blind, and now I can see”!
Instead of regurgitating other writers’ thoughts and perspectives of God some original thought and analysis coming from you could add value to the threads instead of hysterical outbursts and waffle. Do some justice to the memory our recent-departed friend Steve Jobs by following his advice about not following others blindly but listen to the still small voice within and follow your dreams. Probably he has gone to board the space craft that is currently circling the planet in a cloaked fashion ready to act out the scenario described in your book of revelations. Don’t shout that I have watched to many Star trek episodes. What man can conceive van be achieved.
“The day that man eats from the tree of knowledge (technology), he will become one of us and be like gods”!
@millertheanunnaki: “But, unlike CH, I will not abandon you and leave you to remain in the wilderness and in the pit of darkness but through exposure to knowledge you will se the LIGHT…
I remember a good friend of mine giving me wise counsel many years ago: “You cannot teach physics to a mouse.
“Gravity is an observed, experienced fact.”
Things fall.
“Gravitation, is a theory that explains that fact, in two main flavours: Newtonian, and Einstein — a big part of the General Theory of Relativity”.
“Basically, a massive body warps the fabric of space, so the lines light travels on are curved away from that would have been if no mass were there.”
“The fact of gravity, is explained by theories of gravitation. So long as things fall down, the former is not in doubt. The latter, are inherently provisional inferences to best explanation so far and are subject to revision to better account for observed facts.”
“But, we can directly check gravitation by observations, i.e it is an operations theory of the world as a going, present concern, however we may project it into the remote and unobserved past, we have a strong base in the present.”
Halsall, the above, is most certainly NOT* to be equated to the so-called theory of Evo Mat, which REMAINS a THEORY* with NO observed, or discovered FOSSLS, confiming any TRANSITIONAL or intermediate evidence at ALL! And don’t worry to come with Micro evo, within a specific species, that’s NOT EVOLUTION!
@Zoe…
Nice cut-and-paste.
Did you understand any of it?
Tell me, what theory did Einstein die not believing?
“The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record:”
“The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find intermediate varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps [[ . . . . ] He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record will rightly reject my whole theory.[[Cf. Origin, Ch 10, “Summary of the preceding and present Chapters,” also see similar remarks in Chs 6 and 9.]
Darwin’s argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I wish only to point out that it was never “seen” in the rocks.”
“Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.” [[Stephen Jay Gould ‘Evolution’s erratic pace’. Natural History, vol. LXXXVI95), May 1977, p.14.] [[HT: Answers.com]”
These ‘punctuated’ frauds, are so scientifically DISHONEST, to FACTS and EVIDENCE, they’ll FABRICATE any unscientific ‘theory’ to ease their utter embarrasment of this FAILED THEORY; as,
“EVOLUTION: the FOSSILS STILL* say NO!” And, always WILL!!!
@Zoe… Just wondering…
Since you are so insistent to dismiss Richard Dawkins…
I have to ask… Have you read any of his work?
Halsall, Your friend was not entirely right, you can teach a ‘little’ physics to a mouse, after all, look at you! (Lol!)
@MLTanunnaki, Man, poor Steve Jobs, as brilliant as he was, believed in a bunch of utter “ABSTRACT” Zen Buddhistic NOTHINGNESS, aided and abetted, no doubt by exposing his MIND, soul, to LSD, which then gave Satan and his demon entities, incredible access, to his imaginary powers, yes, immediate in this World system of Satanically controlled commercialism, temporary, transient, SUCCESS, as Jobs HAD; THEN* DEATH* separation of body from soul/spirit, where TRUE existence, in either ETERNAL BLISS, JOY, and everlasting LIFE, begins with Almighty God, IN* Christ Jesus, IF* one has accepted and received HIM* or, EVERLASTING separation, DEATH, in conscious MISERY and torment, forever, based on ones CHOICE, either/or, NOT both/and!!!
I can assure you, Jobs, based on the choices he made, from reports based on his personal life, is NOT floating around in some Stak Trek, fantacy world!!!
@Zoe: “Halsall, Your friend was not entirely right, you can teach a ‘little’ physics to a mouse, after all, look at you! (Lol!)
Funny.
But you didn’t answer my question.
Have you read any of Dawkins?
Yes or no?
Halsall, I’ve listened to Richard Dawkins, expound and EXPOSE his Darwinian evolutionary diatribe of utter unscientific FALLACY, deluded BS, under the guise of science, I’ve NEVER heard such arrogant, ignorant DELUSION come from anyone who calls himself a scientist!!!
Dr.John Lennox, mathmatician, and philosopher of science at Oxford, RAN circles around Dawkins, like teaching a child, in their debate, which I’m sure you’ve listened to. Dawkins is NO match for brilliant, scientist, philosopher, mathmatician, and devout Christian like Lennox.
Dawkins ignorance, re Logic, epistemology, and the philosophy of science, not to mention, also, his ignorance of ‘Religion’ vis-a-vis TRUE Christianity, was so glaringly obvious in his debate with Lennox, it was pitiful to see Dawkins, so exposed by Lennox, in such a gracious, but firm manner; all Dawkins could keep repeating WAS, ‘Darwinian evolution is a fact….” What debased LIES, this statement is premised on!!
And you want to know, if I’ve read any of Dawkins work? For what reason would I waste my money buying any of his books, to hear more of his FABRICATED, pseudo-science, unproven theories, presented as facts!!!
Dawkins IS a disgrace to science, a RABIB, arrogant, DELUDED, athiest FOOL!!!
Noah’s Flood Proof?..Roots of Human Family Tree Are Remarkably Shallow;
All Alive Today Share 1 Common Ancestor Page 24
The Sons of Noah
“The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.)These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth…Genesis 9
By MATT CRENSON AP National Writer
Joseph Anton Koch (1768 – 1839)
Landscape with Noah, Offering a Sacrifice of Gratitude
Oil on canvas. Click and Drag Photo to resize.
Jul 1, 2006 (AP)� Whoever it was probably lived a few thousand years ago, somewhere in East Asia. Taiwan, Malaysia and Siberia all are likely locations. He or she did nothing more remarkable than be born, live, have children and die.
Yet this was the ancestor of every person now living on Earth, the last person in history whose family tree branches out to touch all 6.5 billion people on the planet today.
That means everybody on Earth descends from somebody who was around as recently as the reign of Tutankhamen, maybe even during the Golden Age of ancient Greece. There’s even a chance that our last shared ancestor lived at the time of Christ.
“It’s a mathematical certainty that that person existed,” said Steve Olson, whose 2002 book “Mapping Human History” traces the history of the species since its origins in Africa more than 100,000 years ago.
It is human nature to wonder about our ancestors who they were, where they lived, what they were like. People trace their genealogy, collect antiques and visit historical sites hoping to capture just a glimpse of those who came before, to locate themselves in the sweep of history and position themselves in the web of human existence.
But few people realize just how intricately that web connects them not just to people living on the planet today, but to everyone who ever lived.
With the help of a statistician, a computer scientist and a supercomputer, Olson has calculated just how interconnected the human family tree is.
You would have to go back in time only 2,000 to 5,000 years and probably on the low side of that range to find somebody who could count every person alive today as a descendant.
Furthermore, Olson and his colleagues have found that if you go back a little farther about 5,000 to 7,000 years ago everybody living today has exactly the same set of ancestors.
In other words, every person who was alive at that time is either an ancestor to all 6 billion people living today, or their line died out and they have no remaining descendants.
That revelation is “especially startling,” statistician Jotun Hein of England’s Oxford University wrote in a commentary on the research published by the journal Nature.
“Had you entered any village on Earth in around 3,000 B.C., the first person you would have met would probably be your ancestor,” Hein marveled.
It also means that all of us have ancestors of every color and creed. Every Palestinian suicide bomber has Jews in his past. Every Sunni Muslim in Iraq is descended from at least one Shiite. And every Klansman’s family has African roots.
How can this be?
It’s simple math. Every person has two parents, four grandparents and eight great-grandparents. Keep doubling back through the generations 16, 32, 64, 128 and within a few hundred years you have thousands of ancestors.
It’s nothing more than exponential growth combined with the facts of life. By the 15th century you’ve got a million ancestors. By the 13th you’ve got a billion. Sometime around the 9th century just 40 generations ago the number tops a trillion.
But wait. How could anybody much less everybody alive today have had a trillion ancestors living during the 9th century? The answer is, they didn’t.
Imagine there was a man living 1,200 years ago whose daughter was your mother’s 36th great-grandmother, and whose son was your father’s 36th great-grandfather. That would put him on two branches on your family tree, one on your mother’s side and one on your father’s.
In fact, most of the people who lived 1,200 years ago appear not twice, but thousands of times on our family trees, because there were only 200 million people on Earth back then. Simple division a trillion divided by 200 million shows that on average each person back then would appear 5,000 times on the family tree of every single individual living today.
But things are never average. Many of the people who were alive in the year 800 never had children; they don’t appear on anybody’s family tree. Meanwhile, more prolific members of society would show up many more than 5,000 times on a lot of people’s trees.
Keep going back in time, and there are fewer and fewer people available to put on more and more branches of the 6.5 billion family trees of people living today. It is mathematically inevitable that at some point, there will be a person who appears at least once on everybody’s tree.
But don’t stop there; keep going back. As the number of potential ancestors dwindles and the number of branches explodes there comes a time when every single person on Earth is an ancestor to all of us, except the ones who never had children or whose lines eventually died out.
And it wasn’t all that long ago. When you walk through an exhibit of Ancient Egyptian art from the time of the pyramids, everything there was very likely created by one of your ancestors every statue, every hieroglyph, every gold necklace. If there is a mummy lying in the center of the room, that person was almost certainly your ancestor, too.
It means when Muslims, Jews or Christians claim to be children of Abraham, they are all bound to be right.
“No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu,” Olson and his colleagues wrote in the journal Nature.
How can they be so sure?
These are some of artifacts writer and editor Steve Olson uses to trace his family’s genealogy and create a family tree, pictured March 13, 2006, at Olson’s home in Bethesda, Md. (AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari) Click and Drag Photo to resize.
Seven years ago one of Olson’s colleagues, a Yale University statistician named Joseph Chang, started thinking about how to estimate when the last common ancestor of everybody on Earth today lived. In a paper published by the journal “Advances in Applied Probability,” Chang showed that there is a mathematical relationship between the size of a population and the number of generations back to a common ancestor.
Plugging the planet’s current population into his equation, he came up with just over 32 generations, or about 900 years.
Chang knew that answer was wrong because it relied on some common, but inaccurate, assumptions that population geneticists often use to simplify difficult mathematical problems.
For example, his analysis pretended that Earth’s population has always been what it is today. It also assumed that individuals choose their mates randomly. And each generation had to reproduce all at once. Chang’s calculations essentially treated the world like one big meet market where any given guy was equally likely to pair up with any woman, whether she lived in the next village or halfway around the world.
Chang was fully aware of the inaccuracy people have to select their partners from the pool of individuals they have actually met, unless they are entering into an arranged marriage. But even then, they are much more likely to mate with partners who live nearby.
And that means that geography can’t be ignored if you are going to determine the relatedness of the world’s population.
A few years later Chang was contacted by Olson, who had started thinking about the world’s interrelatedness while writing his book. They started corresponding by e-mail, and soon included in their deliberations Douglas Rohde, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology neuroscientist and computer expert who now works for Google.
The researchers knew they would have to account for geography to get a better picture of how the family tree converges as it reaches deeper into the past. They decided to build a massive computer simulation that would essentially re-enact the history of humanity as people were born, moved from one place to another, reproduced and died.
Rohde created a program that put an initial population on a map of the world at some date in the past, ranging from 7,000 to 20,000 years ago. Then the program allowed those initial inhabitants to go about their business. He allowed them to expand in number according to accepted estimates of past population growth, but had to cap the expansion at 55 million people due to computing limitations.
Although unrealistic in some respects 55 million is a lot less than the 6.5 billion people who actually live on Earth today he found through trial and error that the limitation did not significantly change the outcome with regard to common ancestry.
The model also had to allow for migration based on what historians, anthropologists and archaeologists know about how frequently past populations moved both within and between continents. Rohde, Chang and Olson chose a range of migration rates, from a low level where almost nobody left their native home to a much higher one where up to 20 percent of the population reproduced in a town other than the one where they were born, and one person in 400 moved to a foreign country.
Allowing very little migration, Rohde’s simulation produced a date of about 5,000 B.C. for humanity’s most recent common ancestor. Assuming a higher, but still realistic, migration rate produced a shockingly recent date of around 1 A.D.
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved
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NOTE: Just a bit more amazing evidence, in support of the veracity of God’s Word, the Bible, the cumulative effect of which, once again demolishes the Evo Mat, theory, down the drain of folly, foolishness, and ignorance!
@ Zoe:
It must be admitted that you are one in a billion! One can only marvel at your voracious reading skills and your ability to regurgitate such heavy writings by other authors. I have 2 books by Prof. Richard Dawkins: “The God Delusion” and “The Greatest Show on Earth- The Evidence for Evolution”. Would you suggest I burn them, as they did in the dark ages, because they contain demonic writings that can invade and corrupt my mind?
But Zoe, tell me! Why do you have to explore these various so-called fonts of evidence to come to the conclusion that we living today have a common ancestor(s)? I thought you would have gone straight to your Only Book of Truth at the beginning of the story where we were told that Adam & Eve were the first 2 people on Earth and from whom all humans descend. Or you could have alluded to the story of the flood in the book. This would also explain (from your perspective) the survival of modern animal life forms. According to your story book, the only humans that survived the deluge were Noah, his wife, his 3 sons and their wives. In addition, only the animals that Noah took into the ark were saved and formed the only genetic pool for modern animals. I wonder if the Polar bear made the journey to the ark!
If all races living today are the direct result of Noah’s 3 sons and their wives, then the black race must have descended from one of them. Unfortunately in the story, Noah asked your god to curse Ham and to make him a servant to his brothers forevermore. Can this explain the servile / subservient and damned condition affecting and directing the blackman’s relationship with the other races? Barbadian society is a good starting point at which to carry out such an observation and analysis of this alleged biblical curse on the children of the Sun.
@MLTanunnaki
“It must be admitted that you are one in a billion! One can only marvel at your voracious reading skills and your ability to regurgitate such heavy writings by other authors. I have 2 books by Prof. Richard Dawkins: “The God Delusion” and “The Greatest Show on Earth- The Evidence for Evolution”. Would you suggest I burn them, as they did in the dark ages, because they contain demonic writings that can invade and corrupt my mind?”
You know what you can do with Dakwins books, don’t you? Its your choice!
BTW, it WAS the wicked, EVIL, Popes, Roman Catholicism, THE WHORE of Revelation, that BURNT books, in order to keep the masses from knowing the TRUTH* of God’s Word, the keep people in IGNORANCE of the TRUTH, it was only then a matter of time, before this TYRANNICAL Popery was halted, by the Great Reformation, which brought LIBERTY, both civil, and religious, to the Western civilization as we know it today!
Do you understand the meaning of ‘coherence’? Collective, objective, rational, logical, EVIDENCE, brought together, in presenting and defending, TRUTH claims?
Do you understand what it means, that “The structure of Justification, in defending any propostional ‘Truth Claim’ IS* coherence, that coherence IS* our sole criterior for TRUTH.”?
Do you understand, that “Reason, I.e, the ability to rationally, objectively, and logically consider evidence, FACTS, IS* necessary for revelation, (knowledge) to be COHERENT.”?
Dawkins et al of his ilk, are so IGNORANT, re the philosphical branches of Logic, epistemology, and metaphysics, which are foundationally necessary, in order to EVALUATE the FACTS, evidence, of true Science, especially Evo Mat vis-a-vis Creation, that ARE so obviously revealing IN* the FOSSIL record, that any intellectually honest person, simply we be left in awe, at the amazing reality of the TRUTH of special Creation, by Almighty God, as given in the Genesis narrative account in His* Word, the Bible!
It is terrible, that so many Ph.d,s in science, and other disciplines, are so ignorant, lacking knowledge, in the areas alluded to above, i.e., Logic etc, that’s why they are so stupid, but then again, it comes down to basic common sense, and honesty, which these atheist et al, are BLINDED with, blatantly refusing to SEE the TRUTH.
If the LIGHT that be in them IS* DARKNESS*, O’ how great is that DARKNESS?
@ Zoe:
Hi professed Christian and Jesus follower, tell me what to do with the Dawkins books!
Please address the issues raised about Adam & Eve and Noah and his Lot!
What’s your take on them or are they too difficult to deal with, genius?
@MLTanunnaki, Why don’t you consult one of the ‘pantheon’ of Egyptian gods, maybe, Rah, Pa, or Ma, if Osiris or Isis, is asleep, I’m sure any of these ‘demonic’ entities, would gladly assist you, as one of their faithful dups!
“For 25 years Richard Morgan was a card-carrying atheist and flaming Richard Dawkins fan. Born in the UK, living in France, he traveled to Chicago to relate this special experience.
Richard had a sudden, radical conversion experience in 2008. Not only did it rock his world in an instant, it incited a riot on the Dawkins Internet discussion board. Despite his mannerly approach, he was quickly banished from the forum.”
In this video, Richard tells you his strange yet wonderful story:
Given your unquestionable biblical knowledge, why do you skip my easy question?
What cabins did the various dinosaurs occupy on the Ark?
No evolutionary flim flam, give me the straight answer.
@ Straight Talk :
Is that one for ZOE?
Because I too would like to know which cabin and what was their choice of diet.
I would also like to know if poor Noah had to contend with 2 wooly mammoths, 2 alligators and 2 Komodo dragons.
Zoe you can’t really argue that they were left behind because, according to your reckoning, they would not exist today since they would have been destroyed by the water that decimated the other wicked humans other than Noah’s family, including innocent children.
“What cabins did the various dinosaurs occupy on the Ark?”
I haven’t a clue, how Almighty God did it, it is His business, like how He kept over 2 Million, misreable Jews, alive in the desert, for 40 years, on ‘manor’ from heaven, no one got sick, and not a shoe soul wore out either!
After all, He holds the ENTIRE Universe in the palm of His Hand, like an atom, AND, if He moves His little finger, anthrophormically speaking, IT TREMBLES!
Go figure!
I think I figured it,
total mythical bunkum.
Is that what you figured, Zoe?
Zoe how come you didn’t mention Richard the athesist was a Mormon for 10years before he became an athesist /born again christian.The guy certainly had an identity problem and was totally confused after being brainwashed by his religious teachings , then in his quest to find the answers he became a follower of Dawkins , then when that didn;t work out to his expectations he becomes a christian.maybe he is confused . won’t be surprising if he changes his mind again. Stayed tuned. maybe Richard has one more ace up his sleeve.
@ Zoe:
“like how He kept over 2 Million, misreable Jews, alive in the desert, for 40 years, on ‘manor’ from heaven, no one got sick, and not a shoe soul wore out either!”
How do you know that there were over 2 million Jews alive in the desert?
Where in the Bible do you see this recorded?
You would think that with so many people living in a place for 40 years that there will be some vestiges / remnants of their sojourn ( e.g. animal and human bones, unless your god kept all of them alive for 40 years with no births or death taking place and eating the same thing -manna day in day out. But there is NO archeological evidence to to support your contention.
@millertheanunnaki: “You would think that with so many people living in a place for 40 years that there will be some vestiges / remnants of their sojourn…
Ah, but remember that Zoe doesn’t believe in archaeological evidence.
He only believes (or, at least, claims to believe) what he has been told is said by one particular version of one particular book. A version of a book possibly derived from earlier works, and translated from the original language — with all the errors that incurs….
DID THE EXODUS HAPPEN? ANSWERING THE SCEPTICS
By
Dr. David Lewis
A new wave of scholars is now dogmatically declaring that the Exodus never took place. They insist it’s just a myth concocted centuries later in the time of Josiah to justify the existence of a Jewish state. Some of these new sceptics, such as Zeev Hertzog and Israel I Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University, are Jewish themselves!
The implications of their teaching are profound. They insist that, historically, there really is no such thing as a Jewish or Israelite people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There never was an Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. Moses was a myth, and never wrote the first five books of the Bible. The so-called Israelites are just Canaanites that emerged in Palestine, were joined by a few nomads, and concocted a new religion.
If these new theories are true, then:
The Jewish people have no historical claim to either the land of Canaan, being a nation, or maintaining the State of Israel today. According to the new historians, Israelites aren’t Israelites, just Palestinians.
Christians can’t rely on the authority of the Bible if the very events that foreshadow the death and sacrifice of Jesus Christ are myth. The Passover in Exodus 12 points to His death and He observed as a memorial as did Paul’s converts in I Corinthians who recognized vital spiritual lessons in the Hebrew Exodus.
The new archaeological theories present a fundamental attack on the very foundations of both Judaism and Christianity.
Denial of the Exodus and the reality of the Biblical account is nothing new. Neither are these arguments. The sceptics have been around for over 200 years, and much of their teaching has been the accepted wisdom in universities for a long time. The theories are now being recycled because of a lot of new archaeological evidence that Professor Finkelstein and others have uncovered. This evidence, it is claimed, provides no evidence for the Exodus or the Bible.
Are the sceptics right? They are looking at the right evidence, but at the wrong time. Dating in the history of Egypt and Palestine is based on a couple of assumptions that professors have handed down over the decades. First, they assume the Exodus took place, not when the Bible says it did, around 1450-1447 BC but around 1300 BC. The Bible says the Hebrews built the city of Ramesses and that existed around the time of Ramses II who is dated around 1290. There is no evidence of Hebrews or an Exodus at that time.
What if, however, the Hebrews built the city of Avaris, which existed before the city of Ramesses? Also, what if the Egyptian chronology itself has been wrongly focused? At the very time the historical establishment was more and more rejecting the Biblical record, a handful of archaeologists were questioning the accepted wisdom. In 1991 a group led by Peter James published a book called Centuries of Darkness. Four years later British archaeologist David Rohl published A Test of Time,
marketed in America as Pharaohs and Kings. Both of these books argue, convincingly in my opinion, that the traditional dating of much of ancient history before 1000 BC in most history books is flawed.
Both James and Rohl did not start out with an agenda of trying to prove the Bible. They just went to the Egyptian tombs and monuments and concluded that several of the later dynasties ruled side by side. This meant that earlier dynasties were placed anywhere from one hundred to three hundred years further back than they should have been. The three hundred year ‘Dark Age’ which historians describe in Greece, Phoenicia, and other places, shrinks and even disappears.
The Pharaoh Shishak who invaded Jerusalem has been identified with Soshenk. But Soshenk never attacked Jerusalem but northern Israel! Another Pharaoh did attack Jerusalem. ..the famous Rameses II. In Egyptian he is Ra Me Shi Sha, the Shishak being a Hebrew nickname for ‘The Destroyer’. Rohl concluded that Shishak was Rameses, that the splendid late Canaanite period was the time of Solomon, that the period of the El Amarna letters was the time of Saul and David.
Rohl’s biggest discovery, though, was in finding the evidence for the Exodus in the Thirteenth Dynasty. His findings are summarized by John Fulton, a supporter of David Rohl:
‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21).
That 50% of the names are Israelite means that there must have been avery large group of them in the Egyptian Delta at that time, corroborating the testimony of Exodus 1:7 which alludes to how numerous the Israelites became. The sceptics look for Israel in the Egypt of the Nineteenth Dynasty and remain sceptics, because the proof is in the Egypt of the Thirteenth Dynasty. The site of Avaris has been uncovered by the Austrian archaeologist Manfred Bietak in the land of Goshen underneath that of
the city of Ramesses. It provides plenty of proof, says Fulton, for Israel’s presence and sufferings in Egypt:
‘The people who lived in Avaris were not Egyptian but Asiatic Palestinian or Syrian. The finds there included numerous pottery fragments of Palestinian origin. Several factors about the graves were particularly fascinating:- 65% of the burials were of children under 18 months of age, the normal for this period being 20-30%. Could this be due to the killing of the male Israelite children by the Egyptians, recorded in Exodus 1:22? A disproportionately high number of adult women as opposed to adult men are buried here, again pointing to the slaughter of male Israelite babies. There are large numbers of long-haired Asiatic sheep buried which indicate these people to be shepherds. Large numbers of weapons found in the male graves indicate the warlike nature of the people.’
According to the Bible, Moses was bom around 1527 BC, in the reign of Neferhotep I. A few fragments of ancient records from a Jewish historian called Artapanus were preserved by the Catholic historian Eusebius. They say that the Pharaoh’s daughter at the time Moses was born was called Merris. She married the Pharaoh Khenephres, also called Sobekhotep IV.
Moses or Mousos, meanwhile became a great general who invaded Nubia and Ethiopia. Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 2.10.1-2 tells the story. The Ethiopians had invaded Egypt and had practically overrun the country:
‘The Egyptians, under this sad oppression, betook themselves to their oracles and prophecies; and when God had given them this counsel, to make use of Moses the Hebrew, and take his assistance, the king commanded his daughter to produce him, that he might be the general of their army … So Moses … cheerfully undertook the business’ and defeated the African invaders by marching through a snake-infested region and taking them by surprise: ‘When he had therefore proceeded thus on his journey, he came upon the Ethiopians before they expected him; and, joining battle with them, he beat them, and deprived them of the hopes they had of success against the Egyptians, and went on in overthrowing their cities, and indeed made a great slaughter of these Ethiopians.’
Josephus was right. A monument in the British Museum tells of Khanferre or Khenephres invading Sudan and Ethiopia, the only Thirteenth Dynasty ruler to do so. Remains of an Egyptian government building with the Pharaoh’s statue has been found hundreds of miles south of known Egyptian territoy
Sobekhotep IV/Khenephres was the Pharaoh of the Oppression from whom Moses fled, about 1487 BC. The forty years Moses spent in Midian were likely to have been 1487-1447 BC. The Pharaoh of the Exodus was Dudimose. Fulton records that the Austrians found evidence both of God’s slaying of the firstborn and the sudden departure of Israel from Goshen:
‘The Tenth Plague to be sent on Egypt just before the Exodus was the plague on the first-born, recorded in Exodus 12:29,30. At the end of stratum G/l at Tell ed-Daba or the ancient city of Avaris (p.293), archaeologists found shallow burial pits into which the victims of some terrible disaster had been thrown. These death pits were not carefully organized internments; the bodies were simply thrown in on top of one another. Could these be the burial pits of the first-born Egyptians? What is more, immediately after this disaster, the remaining population left Avaris en masse; this fits perfectly with the Exodus of the Israelites following the final terrible plague.’
Manetho, the Egyptian historian wrote how Egypt collapsed in the reign of Dudimose:
‘Tutimaos: In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land (Egypt). By main force they easily seized it without striking a blow and having overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods and treated all our natives with cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others.’
The invaders were the Amalekites Israel encountered after leaving Egypt. They found Egypt, devastated by Divine judgment an easy prey.
‘The continuing archaeological discoveries’ says Fulton, ‘here in the ancient city of Avaris mirror exactly the early Israelites revealed in the Old Testament. For two centuries no evidence was found for the Israelites when looking in the strata of the 19th Dynasty. Now that the chronologies have begun to be amended and the sojourn in Egypt placed in the 12th and 13th Dynasties, we have a wealth of archaeological evidence corroborating the Biblical account.’
[ECCLESIASTES 11:4] “HE THAT OBSERVETH THE WIND SHALL NOT SOW; AND HE THAT REGARDETH THE CLOUDS SHALL NOT REAP.”
[ECCLESIASTES 11:6] “IN THE MORNING SOW THY SEED, AND IN THE EVENING WITHHOLD NOT THINE HAND: FOR THOU KNOWEST NOT WHETHER SHALL PROSPER’ EITHER THIS OR THAT, OR WHETHER THEY BOTH SHALL BE ALIKE GOOD.”
NOTE: Yes, archeological evidence is important, but, its research must be related to the ‘correct’ era, under investigation, as the above so aptly illustrates, with coorborating historical ‘writings’ as was also cited, from Egyptian sources, which support the Biblical account.
“Ah, but remember that Zoe doesn’t believe in archaeological evidence.”
Halsall, what do you think the FOSSIL record IS? That so BESPEAKS in its ELOQUENT SILENCE, We were ALL created, that why WE appear ABRUPTLY, FULLY* FORMED* each and every time we are FOUND in ARCHEOLOGICAL discoveries, Stupid!
@ Zoe;
But skipping, dancing, dipsy-doodling and downright intellectual dishonesty will not strengthen your argument.
Tell us! Where did you get your information on the 2 million Jews that left Egypt and wandered in the dessert before going to the Promised Land?
Could Noah’s Ark really hold all the animals that were supposed to be preserved from Flood?
See this page in: Hungarian (magyar), Japanese – 日本語, Spanish (Español)
A growing number of scientists believe that geological evidence indicates our world has undergone a catastrophic flood. This is causing them to question whether or not the biblical account of Noah’s ark could be true. Many people are rereading the Biblical description of the Ark to ascertain the feasibility of such a vessel to fulfill its designated purpose in light of present day knowledge of both zoology and our present day knowledge of shipbuilding.
Size comparison between average size one-story home and Noah’s Ark. Illustration from The World that Perished.How big was Noah’s Ark?
“And God said unto Noah… Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt though make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of… the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side therof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.” (Gen. 6:14-16)
A cubit is the distance between an adult’s elbow and tip of the finger, no less than 18-inches [45.72 centimeters]. (Scene from The World that Perished.)Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters]. Noah’s Ark was said to have been the largest sea-going vessel ever built until the late nineteenth century when giant metal ships were first constructed. Its length to width ratio of six to one provided excellent stability on the high seas. In fact, modern shipbuilders say it would have been almost impossible to turn over. In every way, it was admirably suited for riding out the tremendous storms in the year of the flood.
These dimensions are especially interesting when compared to those given in the mythical, Babylonian account of the Ark. Here the ark is described as a perfect cube, extending 120 cubits in all directions and with nine decks. Such a vessel would spin slowly round and round in the water and from the standpoint of stability, would be a disaster.
Was the ark big enough to hold the number of animals required?
The total available floor space on the ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.
Assuming an 18-inch cubit [45.72 centimeters], Noah’s Ark would have had a cubic volume equal to 569 modern railroad stock cars.The total cubic volume would have been 1,518,000 cubic feet [462,686.4 cubic meters] –that would be equal to the capacity of 569 modern railroad stock cars.
Now comes the question, how many land dwelling air breathing animals would have had to be taken aboard the ark to survive the flood?
According to Ernest Mayr, America’s leading taxonomist, there are over 1 million species of animals in the world.
God only provided the Ark for the protection of humans and land-dwelling, air-breathing creatures. A huge number of animals would not need to be taken aboard the Ark because they are water dwellers. Representatives would be expected to survive the catastrophe. With God’s protection against extinction during the Deluge, survival would have been assured. (Scene from The World that Perished, a Christian motion picture about the Flood)However, the vast majority of these are capable of surviving in water and would not need to be brought aboard the ark. Noah need make no provision for the 21,000 species of fish or the 1,700 tunicates (marine chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas of the world, or the 600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins, or the 107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters, or the 10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids or the 5,000 species of sponges, or the 30,000 protozoans, the microscopic single-celled creatures.
In addition, some of the mammals are aquatic. For example, the whales, seals and porpoises. The amphibians need not all have been included, nor all the reptiles, such as sea turtles, and alligators. Moreover, a large number of the arthropods numbering 838,000 species, such as lobsters, shrimp, crabs and water fleas and barnacles are marine creatures. And the insect species among arthropoda are usually very small. Also, many of the 35,000 species of worms as well as many of the insects could have survived outside the Ark.
How many animals needed to be brought aboard?
Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word “specie” is not equivalent to the “created kinds” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.)
But, let’s be generous and add on a reasonable number to include extinct animals. Then add on some more to satisfy even the most skeptical. Let’s assume 50,000 animals, far more animals than required, were on board the ark, and these need not have been the largest or even adult specimens.
Remember there are really only a few very large animals, such as the dinosaur or the elephant, and these could be represented by young ones. Assuming the average animal to be about the size of a sheep and using a railroad car for comparison, we note that the average double-deck stock car can accommodate 240 sheep. Thus, three trains hauling 69 cars each would have ample space to carry the 50,000 animals, filling only 37% of the ark. This would leave an additional 361 cars or enough to make 5 trains of 72 cars each to carry all of the food and baggage plus Noah’s family of eight people. The Ark had plenty of space.
The bigger problem would have been the construction of the Ark. But the Bible indicates that Noah did this under Divine guidance and there is no reason to believe he did not hire additional workmen.
How were the animals gathered?
Another enormous problem some have posed is the problem of gathering specimens of each kind of air-breathing land animal and bringing them aboard the Ark. However, the Genesis account indicates that God gathered the animals and brought them to Noah inside the ark two by two. Some have suggested this may have involved the origin of animal migratory instincts or, at least, an intensification of it. We also know that most animals possess the ability to sense danger and to move to a place of safety.
How could Noah’s family take care of all those animals?
Noah with the animals, as depicted in the motion picture, The World that Perished.Once aboard, many have suggested that Noah’s problems really began, with only 8 people to feed and water, to provide fresh air and sanitation for the huge menagerie of animals for a total of 371 days. However, a number of scientists have suggested that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. It has been said that in nearly all groups of animals there is at least an indication of a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate. Perhaps these abilities were supernaturally intensified during this period. With their bodily functions reduced to a minimum, the burden of their care would have been greatly lightened.
Conclusion
It is evident, when all the facts are examined that there is no scientific evidence that the biblical account of Noah’s ark is a myth or fable. The facts support the view that Noah’s ark was large enough to carry the number of animals required to repopulate the earth after the flood and that Noah and his family were capable of caring for the animals during their time on the Ark.
The flood of Noah’s day was a universal judgment of sin. God destroyed the world that existed at that time because of their wickedness. When we look at nature, with its testimonies to the flood, we are viewing a reminder that God does judge sin. It is also a reminder that God will save those who have faith in Him from judgment. God promised that He would never again destroy the world with water, but that a future judgment would take place. Jesus Christ came into the world to die for our sins and to restore man’s relationship with God, so that we need not fear His judgment.
Noah pleaded with the people of his day to have faith in God. They would not listen and the door to the ark was closed. Now, Christ is calling unto the world to once again have faith in God. Will you answer His calling and be saved from future judgment? The decision is yours.
Related information
Dinosaurs – Did Noah take them on the Ark, too? [answer]
More Information
Visit the Catastrophe index in our Creation SuperLibrary for much more information about the biblical Flood.
Learn about DINOSAURS and the Flood in our Great Dinosaur Mystery section
Are dinosaur fossils evidence for the great Flood? Answer
How did FISH (freshwater and saltwater) survive the Flood? Answer
How did land plants survive the Genesis Flood? Answer
The water—Where did it come from? And where did it all go after the Flood? Answer
How many people survived the Flood catastrophe? Answer
Origin of races—How could all human races come from Noah, his three sons and their wives? answer
Does the Bible really claim that the Flood covered the ENTIRE Earth? Answer
Has anyone really seen Noah’s Ark? answer
So where are all the fossils of pre-Flood people? Answer
Kids wordsearch puzzle Go
Kids coloring page – Noah’s Ark on the water Go
Outstanding Christian video available on this subject: The World That Perished [Read about it]
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Authors: Stanley E. Taylor and Paul S. Taylor, adapted from from their motion picture The World That Perished, produced and distributed by Eden Communications.
This page is located at: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html
Copyright © 1997, 1999, 2002, Eden Communications, All Rights Reserved – except as noted on attached “Usage and Copyright” page that grants ChristianAnswers.Net users generous rights for putting this page to work in their homes, personal witnessing, churches and schools.
The World That Perished
by Films for Christ / Eden Communications
All about Noah’s Ark and the Flood – This award-winning, highly visual documentary film answers the questions of skeptics, and reveals the source of most fossils. Discover scientific and cultural evidence in support of the Bible’s cataclysmic flood that once covered our entire planet and continues to effect our lives today.
@millertheanunnaki et al: “But skipping, dancing, dipsy-doodling and downright intellectual dishonesty will not strengthen your argument.
It is interesting, isn’t it…?
Some believe that they can convince others by cutting-and-pasting a lot, but actually not saying anything original.
And try to get them to answer a direct question….
WHY SHOULD WE ACCEPT THE FACTUALITY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?
Copyright © 1997, by John Lankford, Fort Smith, Arkansas
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Many people accept the idea of God but do not accept the God revealed in the Old Testament. They do not believe in the factual nature of the Old Testament. Will being “a church that does good and has nice people in it” convince anyone? No, for this could describe any humanitarian organization such as the Lion’s Club, etc. What about the argument that the world was created? No, that merely shows the reasonableness that a God exists. It does not tell which God or describe that God in detail. What is needed is some way to test the factual nature of the Old Testament.
THE OLD TESTAMENT IS EVENT-CENTERED
First, Not all religions are event-based. Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, etc., are all “teachings” that are not based in any historical events in the same way the Old Testament is. There is not this string of people, places and things like in the Old Testament narratives. Further, the “gods” of these religions do not “enter history” as the God of the Bible does. Being event-based is important because if a writing claims to be true historically, then it’s contents should be verifiable as far as one is able to check.
(Note: an excellent resource to contrast world religions is The Compact Guide to World Religions, by Halverson, ed.)
Second, as with any world view, it will ultimately rest on faith. But it will not be blind faith. It will be faith founded on fact. And if the God of the Bible is the true One, then faith is the key principle (Hebrews 11).
HISTORICAL ARCHEOLOGY IS THE KEY METHOD
First, it is not physical/biological science that gets the starring role in evidences. Many seem to think that physical/biological science is the star because this is how the case for creation is established. However, showing creation to be logical doesn’t say one thing about the truth of the Old Testament narratives to the contrast of other world views. As such, the physical/biological sciences are very limited as evidence.
Second, historical events require historical verification. Artifacts, papers, and reason all enter into the picture. So, archeological evidences are superior to those from the “creation sciences” to establish faith in the factuality of the Old Testament.
Outstanding Old Testament events include not only creation but also the Flood, Tower of Babel, Call of Abraham, the Egyptian sojourn and EXODUS, the Sinai –event, conquest, kingdom, captivity and return narratives. All these are packed with names of people, places and cultural color. Does archeology verify the Old Testament along these lines?
As a side note: First, the use of the term “verify” is used in the place of “proof” because none of us were present to actually see or witness the events (which would be “proof” for us). We are limited to just making checks at available points along the line. If a number of these checks pan out, then we have reason to believe in the factuality of the document. Hence, we verify points along the line rather than “prove the entire line”. Second, there is always some uncertainty in the “facts” we gather. This does not mean our facts are worthless, it means that everything has a specific level of certainty associated with it. Facts are just items that have a high degree of certitude to them. Third, to establish a case, we always wish that more pieces of the puzzle were available. For example, even if one had a 100 piece puzzle of the Statue of Liberty and 12 pieces were missing in a random way, one could still “get the picture” with a good degree of certainty but we naturally wish all the pieces were present. The same holds true for any type of investigation.
WHAT ARE SOME ARCHEOLOGICAL VERIFICATIONS?
First, it is important to note that faith is in the picture. It will be faith in the testimony of the archeologists that guide us. And there are three very good works in this area that any library would benefit from having. They are (1) The New Unger’s Bible Handbook, revised by G.N. Larson, (Moody Press). This is an excellent work. It surveys the Bible and gives archeological “finds” that help illuminate the text. There is much use of color photos/charts and maps. (2) Genesis and Archeology, by Howard F. Vos, (Moody). Even though it contains B/W pictures, it still is very informative and easy to read. (3) Archeology and Bible History, by Free and Vos, (Zondervan). This is an up-to-date work by noted archeologists/scholars. It follows the Bible-line of history and that makes it very useful. The work is in-depth and authoritative.
CASE STUDIES
Sodom and Gomorrah:
Genesis 14 tells of five cities around the Salt Sea that are located close to tar pits. It is a fact that oil-based material does appear in considerable quantities around the southern end of the Dead Sea.1, 2a As such, today no one wants to live there. But excavations have shown that the area was densely populated in the past.3 Further, Josephus, the Jewish historian, writing at the end of the first century, said that traces of the five cities could still be seen at that time.2b This is independent, corroborative, testimony that verifies the Bible statement of cities being around the southern end of the Dead Sea.
The area also contained lots of salt, free sulfur (“brimstone”) and oil deposits. Coupled with earthquakes common to the area, this could account for the origin of the fire and brimstone “raining down from heaven.”4 While there are still many details to be worked out, it is clearly seen that the Bible statements do have a factual base. Hence, faith in the story of Gen 14 and 19 are fully justified.
The Bitter Waters of Marah:
In Ex 15:23 it is stated that the Israelites could not drink the water because it “was bitter.” How can water be “bitter”? Does this statement have a basis in fact? Yes, most certainly. When water is “bitter” it usually contains dissolved minerals. These are some of the same kind found in well water–calcium and magnesium. How can “bitter water” be made “sweet” (un-bitter)? Maybe the “tree” that Moses threw in had some property that could “catch” all the minerals responsible for making the water bitter. Some forms of cellulose (a constituent of wood) are able to work in this way and are used to “soften” water today.5 We do not know what actually occurred, but we can be confident that what is being told is not some fable. The writer of the story made true observations that are backed up by current knowledge. In short, the testimony rings true.
The Ark:
Using the measurements of the ark given by the Bible and the average distance of a cubit, engineers have calculated the size, stability and design of the ark. It is now know that these are not just haphazard numbers that some story-teller might have cooked up, but that they show the sign of intelligent design.6
The Exodus:
Here is where the story goes in a different direction. First, it is standard knowledge that the Egyptians had many “gods” and that even the Pharaoh was a “god.” Second, common sense tells us that no nation is going to build monuments that brag about how they got defeated, especially if was by a bunch of their slaves!! And this would even be more difficult to admit if the very “gods” of their nation were defeated (and they were)! Hence, one would naturally expect the Egyptians to actually “say nothing” of the Exodus. It can almost be imagined that it would be a political mistake to erect a monument or build some sort of Egyptian “billboard” (technical: stela) to that effect. Further, it would be expected that if anything was said about the Hebrews, it would be sarcastic. What is expected is actually what is observed. No monuments or discussion of the Exodus have been found. The Egyptians literally kept their mouths shut about it. However, in the context shown, their silence speaks loudly!
Later on, where Israel is mentioned in an Egyptian monument, it is a “put down.” For example, in the case of Merneptah,7 the successor of Ramesses II, he boasted of his victory over the people of Palestine (and he names Israel). The monument of this victory has a sarcastic tone to it as per Israel. After the Exodus and “overthrow” of Egyptian gods, the sarcasm toward Israel is perfectly reasonable.
Hence, it is seen that Egyptians report and boast of victory and are silent as a graveyard about defeat! Nothing in archeology contradicts the Old Testament record as per the Exodus.
WHAT IS THE CONCLUSION OF THE MATTER?
First, Nelson Glueck, the renowned Jewish archeologist, said that “it may be stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference” (from Rivers in the Desert; History of Neteg. Philadelphia: Jewish Publications Society of America, 1969, page 31).
Second, Wm. F. Albright, another highly respected archeologist, has this to say “. . . discovery after discovery have established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of history” (from The Archeology of Palestine. Rev. ed. Harmondsworth, Middlesex: Pelican Books, 1960).
Third, the two men mentioned above are not known to be conservatives, hence their testimony carries greater weight.
So, we can have full confidence in the Old Testament as history. Faith can be founded on fact and not feeling.
REFERENCES
Vos, Howard F., Genesis and Archeology, Chicago: Moody
Whitson, Complete Works of Flavius Josephus. Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1963 (a) “Antiquities 1:9”, (b) “Wars of the Jews” 4:8.4
Free and Vos, Archeology and Bible History, revised ed. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1992 (p. 52)
Unger, The New Unger’s Bible Handbook, Chicago: Moody, 1984 (pp. 23, 52)
Stock and Rice, Chromatographic methods, Chapman and Hall, 1967
Reference available on request. It contains the calculations by an engineer as per the ark and includes tests of stability for water vessels.
Pfeiffer, Charles ed., The Biblical World, Grand Rapids: Baker (p. 380ff)
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Link to other Evidences by John Lankford
West-Ark Church of Christ
@ Zoe:
“And God said unto Noah… Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt though make in the ark, and thou shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of… the length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make in the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side therof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.” (Gen. 6:14-16)”.
Why did your god put poor Noah through such an awful lot of hard work? No compassion whatsoever, your OT dictator! He could in a twinkling of an eye created a vessel so big as to put the Titanic & Queen Mary to shame!
Were there any toilet facilities in the Ark for humans and animals? A ram is a rather “pissy” creature; and don’t talk about the stench from the swine! With one window things must have been real stink in that place! What kind of entertainment did Noah and the progenitors of his incestuous dynasty engage in? Watching the animals going at it all day and they following suit at night! When it rains we primates tend to feel a bit horny!
“But the Bible indicates that Noah did this under Divine guidance and there is no reason to believe he did not hire additional workmen”.
Noah must have been a wicked and awful employer: Engaging the services of workmen and them sending them away to drown. Today you will call that genocide, similar to Hitler’s actions.
But Zoe, the more you write the more your reveal another agenda. I am beginning to gather that your tongue-in-cheek presentations to defend your biblical truths is a way of your taking the piss out of the crap promulgate by the old European elite PR men to indoctrinate the masses and keep them in political and economic subjugation.. It has worked well with the descendants of the enslaved blacks. The propaganda continues today and is spreading like wild fire in sub-Sahara Africa only to further economically exploit a people who have gone through such misery.
I strongly suspect you are a mole in the Judeo- Christian movement ready to expose the lies posing as the Word of God!
“…and with all UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION* among those (BU Scoffers included!) who PERISH* because they did NOT* receive the love of the TRUTH* (God’s Word) that they might be saved, And for this reason God will send them strong DELUSION that they should believe the LIE, that they all may be condemned who did NOT* believe the TRUTH* but had pleasure in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.” ( 2 Thess. 2: 10-12 Emphasis added).
MLTanunnaki, So it be!
I feel compelled to comment on some of the posts that are many times presented on the BU as intelligent, logical and reasoned. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that opinion is as valid to the person presenting it, as is the opinion of the person whose argument opposes it. But , depending on the subject matter, or the claims that are being offered, there is sometimes a yes or no answer, or better yet a right or wrong answer.
Many times I have noticed that those who are weak in presenting their argument, will resort to one of two things, namely ‘I don’t have an answer for that’ , so I will challenge it by asking another question, or degenerate into name calling and insulting.
I have followed some of these posts for a while now, and I have to say in all sincerity that Zoe is miles ahead of the rest in his presentation of the facts, his articulation, his detailed explanations and the fact that he answers any and all questions asked of him. His passion shines through.
And what’s more he is correct in his interpretation of the Bible.
Mr. Halsall, it seems like you are a first degree babe with a peripheral understanding of physics or mathematics. You accused Zoe of cutting and pasteing . Knowledge is not always what you have at your fingertip, but knowing where to find it , and then interpret and present it coherently. Did you discover yourself any of the theories or laws of nature yourself, or did you not get that information from scientific publications?
How about you answering some of Zoe’s quetions in detail, the same you ask of him?
In this world we have all kinds of peoples , living in all kinds of different situations, some very harsh, miserable situations, then we have the more materially fortunate people. If we have understanding and respect for those who are suffering, why don’t we have respect for peoples opinions. They were formed through their own life experiences.
Some of us show about as much compassion for others as a pregnant cobra does to an intruder. I am not inferring that you are at that level, but occasionally one sees the vitriol poured out by some others.
Enough said.
@Ph.D:
“How about you answering some of Zoe’s questions in detail, the same you ask of him?”
I commend you for being a learned advocate for Zoe. But your criticism targeted at those who oppose the validity of Zoe’s presentations should also be redirected to your client.
I will gladly do that only if Zoe will be intellectually-honest enough to address simple questions posed to him or her.
Or maybe, as an interlocutor, you can convey to Zoe this repeated question?
“Where in the Bible (to be specific the Book of Exodus, the only source of God’s Word, can I find that 2 million Jews left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years?”
Remember you hold a doctorate in Philosophy, so no bull shitting around!
@Ph.D (a newcomer): “How about you [Mr. Halsall] answering some of Zoe’s quetions in detail, the same you ask of him?
I have. In some detail.
Mr. Zoe, on the other hand, refuses to answer any of my (or any others) questions.
Hmmmmm….
@Ph.D
Some detail for you.
Zoe asserts that there are no transitionary fossils.
Ergo- all fossil records are fully formed created species.
Every land animal on earth was marched two by two into the Ark.
The Ark, “God” specified was 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high, with a window.
I don’t know where the five decks come from, but let’s accept that on Zoe’s word.
So 5 decks at 300 cubits gives a linear length of 1500 cubits, with a width of 50 cubits.
Checking out the 100 largest dinosaur species already found, I find the total minimum length to be over 3100 cubits.
Two by two makes 6000 cubits.
Dismissing the fact for now, that the largest amongst them need the whole 5 decks for headroom, so for this example we’ll confine them to a 9 foot cabin.
The Ark now has a minimum of half its capacity accounted for by a fraction of known dinosaurs.
Now lets start accounting for the other 99.9% of other known species.
BTW. Which University awarded your degree, and in what discipline.
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