THere are non Christians who have similar anti gay views , How would such a ruling affect them. AS far as I am concerned this ruling is a little suspicious as I would indeed affect others whether christian or nonchristian with similar point of view as the couple. Maybe indeed this ruling was meant to send a message to all who are anti gay! How appropriate. Timing is everything!

@ David. What do you mean by our final court is out of England?
I thought the Caribbean court of justice in Port of Spain was our final court of justice. Am I not correct? or am I missing something here.

@ islandgal246

This forum is truly educational. I’m learning more and more about Bim with every post.

@ Anthony

Totally agree. Based on this judgment I would guess they’d need to root all the Christians out of schools and daycare to make sure the nations youth weren’t exposed to their views on homosexuality either.

This ruling is not relevant to Barbados. We do not have equality legislation…no need to get your panties (or boxers) in a twist.

@jack spratt

You are always so emphatic ignoring that the gay issue is a moving target.

@Alpha

Why are you calling people who have another viewpoint GOD haters? You need to read the post on “Think but be aware your biases”. Many religious people become offended when their faith is criticized, but it is ok for them to lambaste those who do not share their beliefs. Tell me how can that be fair? You sound like a third rate mind who is only happy when it is thinking with the majority.

@not: “Yyou were asking about a text that refers to lesbianism as being spoken against in the bible. Please see Romans 1:25-27

Interesting… Is this the only reference you can provide?

Let me please counter with this:

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Against-Nature.html

Important quote:

Gay Christians respond with logic and common sense.

1. Scripture condemns same sex shrine prostitution (a pagan religious fertility practice), not lesbianism and not homosexuality.

2. Celibacy is as against nature as homosexuality.

3. Celibacy negates the sexual complementarity of males and females because celibates neither engage in sexual activity nor reproduce.

4. Celibacy is contrary to the intent of the Creator as expressed in Genesis 2.

5. Celibacy intentionally rebels against God’s plan for male-female sexual union and procreation.

6. If everyone was celibate, the human race would die out.

7. If the Complementarian viewpoint is valid, we would expect scripture to condemn celibacy yet scripture commends celibacy, I Corinthians 7:7-8.

islandgirl,
One can not love God but hate his commandments, that’s just illogical and absurd. That’s like saying you love your parents in one breath but disobey them at every opportunity the next.

The anti-Christian movement is beginning to gather steam now. Behind all the smoke and mirrors, gay rights this, alternative religion that, what is really happening is a concerted well thought-out strategy to undermine Biblical world views and true christianity. That is the real agenda at play. It will only end one way and I put to you God-haters that Jesus will never be a loser.

But I digress. What I find most saddening is Bajans that came up with some degree of biblical influence, maybe under a Godly mothe r or grandmother but then a lil degree here a cushy job there and all of a sudden the Bible, the Church, God is irrelevant. Something for ‘third rate’ thinkers and idiots.

BTW island girl et al the Biblical, Christ-centred world view has NEVER been a majority world view and bu definition CAN NEVER BE so you need to re-examine your assessment about who truly subscribe to the majority world view. I believe the results may shock you if you care for the truth.

@ Alpha “One can not love God but hate his commandments, that’s just illogical and absurd.”

You assume that people should feel the same way about GOD as you do, now that is most illogical and absurd! Many people followed the Christian Religion without ever questioning and understanding why. Because many of you spew the verses of the Bible, you feel that you have become an authority and that gives you and people like you credibility. Why would I want to follow doctrines written by men thousands of years ago of which many of these were borrowed or stolen from other cultures. You idolize a man called Jesus whom many have made into a GOD. Many Christian sects have cannot agree on the scriptures. YOU need to THINK for yourself without fear of learning the truth.

alpha says….”What I find most saddening is Bajans that came up with some degree of biblical influence, maybe under a Godly mothe r or grandmother but then a lil degree here a cushy job there and all of a sudden the Bible, the Church, God is irrelevant. ”

Then what would you say about brilliant minds like GP, Zoe, or Dictionary?
Are Christians, according to your logic, supposed to be dumb……you sounding like the JWs now……lol.

@ Islandgirl

No I did not assume anything.

You said,
“Why would I want to follow doctrines written by men thousands of years ago of which many of these were borrowed or stolen from other cultures. ”
I put it to you that 90% of your life is based on doctrines “written by men thousands of years ago of which many of these were borrowed or stolen from other cultures”. Check it carefully!

“You idolize a man called Jesus whom many have made into a GOD.”
Who do you idolise? If it is not Jesus it is SOMEONE else, either human or spirit!

“Many Christian sects have cannot agree on the scriptures”
What does this have to do with your own pursuit of truth??

“YOU need to THINK for yourself without fear of learning the truth.”
Sage advice, but rather ironic considering…

Essentially Islandgirl there is nothing wrong with healthy doses of skepticism and doubt. You see, the issue of believing the veracity of the Bible and of teh claims of Jesus are usually not intellectual though many like CH would pretend that they are. The issue is moral because if I accept the claims of Jesus the onus is now on me to deconstruct my belief system and change my life style. That is usually the difficult step for many of us.

There are essentially 2 kinds of doubters:
1) Honest doubters, seeking truth
2) Dishonest doubters, fleeing truth

Which kind are you Islandgirl?

@Alpha

Has this Jesus Worship made Christians any better than non Christians? Who gives Christians the right to to feel that they are the only ones with the truth. I am on my own path of discovery in which common sense is employed. I don’t swallow doctrines blindly and I ask questions and reason with facts. I do not allow myself to believe stories about thins I can see that are not possible: i.e I cannot believe that an angel can impregnate a married woman. She was having sex with her husband and that resulted in her pregnancy. I cannot buy into things that do not make sense to me. I cannot make up excuses for the shortcomings of a book written by men in which fear is used to make people followers. My truth is not your truth. My awareness of a creator will never be the same as yours. There are many paths and levels of understanding when seeking spirituality. I try to have an open mind when seeking the truth. Please don’t pee on my leg and tell me it is raining.

This ruling does affect a broad spectrum of society . It is not only to confined to people of religious persuasion.In reality non christian many of them would condemn the Homosexuality lifestyle. In respect many people who in Britain who are care givers and have similar point of views as the couple may be hesitant to speak about them in public for fear of reprisal. What weshould be questioning is the rationale and true meaning behind the law and its affect on others as well.

What is the general consensus of competent Historians, sociologist et al, who have carefully studied ancient civilizations, and as Brian Fitzpatrick, ask:

“Does embracing homosexuality really* cause societies to fail?

“MOST societies throughout history, even the wealthiest and mightest, have eventually collasped and died, WHY? Why don’t they just continue to evolve and flourish forever as their knowledge and technology grow? What allows some cultures to continually bloom, and others to wither?”

What are the consistent facts and evidence, of vast research done by these historians et al, on ancient societies, in either their blooming or demise?

Could the rise and prevelance of ‘homosexuality, and other amoral behaviour and practices, cause societies, as eerily reminiscient of Sodom and Gomorrah, the ancient cities whose destruction, caused by rampant immorality is described in the Old Trestament of the Bible, be a sound warning to all and sundry today?

‘Sex and Culture’

As Ftizpatrick asserts:

“Perhaps the definitive work on the rise and fall of civilizations was publish in 1934 by Oxford anthropologist J.D Unwin in ‘Sex and Culture,’ Unwin studied 86 human civilizations ranging from tiny South Sea island principalities to mighty Rome. He found that a society’s destiny is linked inseparably to the limits it imposes on sexual expression and that those sexual constraints correlate directly to its theological sophistication and religious commitment.”

“In particular, cultures that adopt what Unwin dubbed “absolute monogamy” proved to be the most vigorous, economically productive, artistically creative, scientifically innovative and geographically expansive societies on earth.”

I wonder why this in-depth research, bearing in mind always, that these Volumes were not written by Christians, but by secular intellectuals, scholars, simply analyzing the historic facts and evidence, of WHY and WHAT caused these ancient civilizations to either bloom or fail!

‘Unwin’s contemporary, British historian Arnold Toynbee, was much more explicit about the centrality of religion in history. Toynbee’s masterpiece, his 12-volume “Study of History,” charted the rise and fall of 26 civilizations. In Toynbee’s view, “The course of human history consist of a series of encounters… in which each man or woman or child…is challenged by God to make the FREE CHOICE between doing God’s will and refusing to do it.”

We now have rampant homosexual/lesbianism not only been openly practiced, but also its virtual celebration; in the U.S, England, Europe and elsewhere, gaining support from Judges, whose intent and ultimate agenda, is to destroy the traditional core*values of historic Judeo/Christian ‘marriage’ family UNIT of one man/woman, which WAS the foundational strength of all ancient societies that flourished and bloomed!

In “This Present Age,” sociologist Robert Nisbet writes, “What sociologist are prone to call social disintegration* is really nothing more than the spectacle of a rising number of individuals playing FAST and LOOSE with other individuals in relationships of trust and responsibility. Moral standards begin to ERODE when a society’s members chafe at the disciplne imposed by absolute monogamy and begin to gratify their personal impulses without regard for the consequences inflicted by others.”

“In other words, in an amoral, hedonistic society, you can’t trust the people you need to trust, not even your spouse. Moreover, if people can make and break relationships at will, with no legal repercussions or social stigma, they are much more likely to abandon their marriages – at their children;s expense.”

Thus, the founder of Harvard’s sociology department, Pitirim Sorokin, warned that if individualistic selfhness and self-seeking are not checked, a society will lapse into a state of “SEXUAL ANARCHY.”

Interestingly, the above views, clearly expressed by these secular academics, NOT Christians, and what caused ancient societies to crumble, bar none, who went the path of rampant, debased sexual immorality, as England et al are now doing, will ultimately fail and fall, as whenever mankind goes against our God-ordained monogamous, family unit, of husband/wife, one man, one woman, it is only a matter of time before the sexually obsessed, bring and foster, as Sorokin puts it, “…a society will lapse into a state of “sexual anarchy.”

Truth by definition IS absolute, two competing truth claims CANNOT be both right in the same respect* or same time*, this is emphatically true, by the Law of Non-Contradictions, which has application to ALL men, every where, ALL of the time.

The majority, of free-thinking, historically, have always chosen the devious path, and ALWAYS end up in utter runination; it is the MINORITY that choose the righteous path of Almighty God’s ordained ways, and prosper and flourish, these are the historic facts and credible, warranted evidence, deny it if you wish, but you can’t refute it!

@ Zoe….

….”WHY? Why don’t they just continue to evolve and flourish forever as their knowledge and technology grow? What allows some cultures to continually bloom, and others to wither?”

Can you enlighten us as to which cultures (that continually bloom) you speak of here?
Just one (1) example would be enough.

Matt 24 watch, 119: The UK’s trend to deligitimise and penalise Christians under false colours of Anti Discrimination Law.

“Hardly has this blog taken a moment to address the Bull Guest House case when a fresh ruling by High Court underscores the key problem that Mike Judge complained of previously.”

“Discrimination law meant to act as a shield to protect people
from unfair treatment, not to be used as a sword to attack
those whose beliefs you disagree with.”

“A concern that is multiplied for British Overseas Territory jurisdfictions like Montserrat where (under the prompting Foriegn and Commonwealth Office), very similar anti-discrimination provisions have been written into our constitution.”

“So, we need to put the current cases under the microscope, noticing with Mike Judge how:”

“[t]he same laws used against the Bulls [and which have threatened their livelihood and the sanctity of their home] been used to shut down faith-based adoption agencies that want children to have the benefit of a mum and a dad are committed to each other in marriage. Children were sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.”

“Indeed, we must now wonder with Mike Judge as well, if “PERSONALLY LIBERTY MAY BE NEXT.”

“In this fresh case, as Tim Ross, the Daily Telegraph’s Religious Affairs Editor, pointed out, two UK High Court judges have ruled that: There is no place in British law for Christian beliefs, despite this country’s long history of religious observance and the traditions of the established Church…”

“Lord Justice Munby and Mr. Justice Beatson made remarks when ruling on the case of a Christian couple who were told they cpuld not be foster carers because of their views that homosexuality is wrong. The judges underlined that, in the case of fostering arrangements at least, the right of homosexuals to equality should take precedence’ over the rights of Christians to manifest their beliefs and moral values. In a ruling with potentially wide-ranging implications, the judges said Britain was a ‘largely secular multi-cultural country in which the laws of the realm “do not include Christianity.”

“Tellingly, Ross goes on: “Campaigners for homosexuality welcomed the judgement for placing ’21st century decency above 19th century prejudice.”

“It is beginning to seem that ‘decency’ is being redefined, and that victims of real prejudice and hostility are being blamed for their victimisation by truimphalistic homosexualist activists.”

“For, what is really going on is that homosexualist agitators, flying the legal flag of anti-discrimination law – and often with the aid of UK Government agencies and now judges – are being empowered by increasingly radically secularised British to discriminate upon Christians, and proceed to blame the victims as though they were in the wrong, labelling them with loaded tags such as “prejudice” as though they were card-carrying Klu Klux clansmen.”

“Let us be clear: it is but a minor step of carrying forward a precedent, to move on to the next stage, a stripping foster or adoptive, even natural parents of their children for the thought crime of taking their children to a church where the Pastors, like Pastor Ake Green in Sweden ( who was actually sentenced to goal for preaching that homosexuality is sin to be repented of– simply read from Romans 1, where it teaches:

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who SUPPRESS the TRUTH in unrighteousness because what may be KNOWN of God is MANIFEST in them, for God HAS shown it to them.” (vv. 18,19)

“for since the CREATION of the world His invisible attributes are clearly SEEN, being understood by the things that are MADE, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without EXCUSE.” (v.20).

“Because, although they KNEW God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became FUTILE in their thoughts, and their FOOLISH hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became FOOLS.” (vv. 21, 22)

“And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corriptible man – and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.”

“Therefore, God also gave them UP to UNCLEANNESS, in the LUST of their hearts, to DISHONOR their BODOES among themselves, who exchanged the TRUTH of God for a LIE, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed FOREVER. Amen.”

“For this reason God gave them up to VILE PASSIONS. For even their women exchanged the natural use (heterosexual) for what is AGAINST nature (lesbianism). Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use (heterosexual) of the women, BURNED in their LUST for one anothe, men with men (homosexuals) committing what is SHAMEFUL, and receiving in themselves the penality of their error which was due. And even as they did NOT like to retain God in their knowledge. God gave them over to a DEBASED mind, to do those things which are not fitting, being filled with all unrighteousness, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evilmindednes; they are whisperers, backbitters, HATERS of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not ONLY do the same but also APPROVE of those who practice them.” (vv. 23- 32 Emphasis added throughout).

Now, when we remember the research I quoted earlier up from historians, sociologist, anthropologist, et al whose in-depth studies of ancient societies and civilizations, reveal that whenever mankind goes the route of abased homosexuality, and other deviant such behavior, as God’s Word declares, as quoted from Romans, it always bring God’s Wrath, which IS historically affirmed and confirmed by the research of these secular academics, that runiation will inevitably follow such wanton lifestyles.

Reasons for decline of societies.

Why exactly does absolute monogamy, the God-ordained moral code, bring vitality to a society? Because, absolute monogamy, essentially fosters sound, proper, cultural growth by solving what anthropologist Margret Mead called the “central problem of every society” – that is, to “define appropriate roles fo the man,” Monogamous civilizations require men to choose either lifelong celibacy or the responsibilities of a husband: fidelity, breadwinning and fatherhood. Most men choose to mary, to their good fortune, because married men tend to be healthier, happier and more productive than bachelors.

Those committed husbands create stable marriages, whivh offer the greatest opportunity for raising healthy, productive children who can keep a society strong and growing.

Likewise, the great economist Joseph Scgumpeter attributes the success of capitalism not to the entrepeneur’s lust for money or status, but no his love of family. To Schumpeter, the central pillar of any healthy civilization is the self-sacrificing married man who doesn’t spend his income on his pleasures, but prefers “to work and save primarily for wife and children.”

And in “Family and Civilization, ” Harvard historian Carle Zimmerman concludes that “the creative periods in civilization have been based upon” the strongest form of family, which he terms the “domestic” type.

Children – the real victims

The immediate victims of sexual anarchy, of course, are always children. In her well known article, “Dan Quayle Was Right,” Barbara Dafoe Whitehead writes, “After decades of so-called family diversity, the evidence from social-science research is coming in: The dissolution of two-parent families, though it may benefit the adults involved, is harmeful to many children, and dramatically undermines our society.”

What exactly happens when we take fathers out of the family picture? The National Fatherhood Initiative tells the sorry tale: “Children who live absent their biological fathers are, on average, at least two to three times more likely to be poor, to use drugs, to experience educational, health, emotional and behavioral problems, to be victims of child abuse, and to engage in criminal behavior than their peers who live with their married biological (or adoptive) parents.”

How long does it take for cultural disintegration to set in?

Unwin observed that civilizations cease to grow within three generations after retreating from absolute monogamy. If they fail to return to monogamy, they will continue to slide into individualism and hedonism, and civil disorder will ensue.

Likewise, in his “Social and Cultural Dynamics,” Sorokin, who studied 1, 623 “internal disturbances in Greco-Roman and European history,” found that sexual permissiveness almost always precedes or accompanies “an explosion of sociopolitical.”

Such selfish and undisciplined societies meet ugly fates. Unwin found that EVERY society, without exception, that rejects absolute monogamy either becomes a stagnant culture backwater or collapes altogether.

To those quiet observers, who sincerely desire to know the Biblical imperative of our Creator, that monogamy was designed by Him, for our very best good, of ordering any society, as it IS absolutely foundational to stability of any civilization, and, the research of competent historians et al, ALL agree, that whenever we diviate from these God-ordained societal norms, it fractures any civilization, and WILL BRING, chaos and failure!

Many civilizations only failed after they were introduced to Christianity.

Where then does homosexuality fit into cultural decline? It is just rightwing “old wives’ tale” than an increase in homosexuality signals the decline of a civilization – or is it actually true?

Will Durant, author of the 11 volume series “The Story of Civilization,” observed that homosexual behavior becomes more prevalent as societies go into decline. Unwin noted that “the historical evidence [suggest] that homosexuality is a habit that appears in a society…that has been absolutely monogamous, and is relaxing.” And Zimmerman wrote that “homosexuality is always present in society, but in trustee and domestic family types it is strongly repressed. In late atomistic family systems it becomes much the fashion…”

Radical and subversive agenda.

On its website, the Human Rights Campaign claims to be “the largest civil rights organization working to achieve equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Americans.” Their official narrative is that homosexuals are an oppressed, victimized minority group and that activists are merely working to secure civil rights and social “equality’ – hence the adoption of the “=” sign as their symbol. But civil equality is only part of the agenda. Homosexual activists are also enacting a radical socio-cultural agenda that would shovk Unwin and other classic historians and social researchers.

As homosexual activists have grown more sophisticated in recent years, they have stopped placing some of their most objectionable demands before the public. For example, the North American Man-Boy Love Association is no longer welcomed at most “gay pride” parades, as it once was; of course that does not necessarily mean “gay rights” activists have rejected pedophila, or even NAMBLA. At the 2008 National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association convention, as man was proudly sporting a NAMBLA tee-shirt at the mixer of the first evening of the event.

Since their long-term activist agenda was more plainly expressed in platforms published in years past, here are selected planks of homosexual rights platforms published in 1972, 1987 and 1993, focusing on positions relating to the three pillars of healthy and growing civilization identified by Unwin: 1) strong marriages and families 2) strong sexual restrictions, and 3) religion.

Marriage and family

* We demand legislation to prevent discrimination against Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgendered people in the areas of family diversity, custody, adoption and foster care and that the definition of family includes the full diversity of all family structures.

* Repeal all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into a marriage unit.

*Unrestricted, safe and affordable alternative insemination.

The obvious, radical Homosexual activist agenda, IS to redefine the fdamily to EMBRACE virtually ANY combination of people imaginable from THREESOMES and FOURSOMES to families with NO identifiable FATHER and families without a mother. In effect, the word “family” would become meaningless. Are these the types of aggregations likely to produce CHILDREN who can keep society growing, healthy, sound, and productive?

Also, Gay activists want to coerce educators into promoting a gay-friendly curriculum in the schools, a goal they have already achieved in many parts of the country. They would also force private institutions like the Boy scouts to go along with the program so children would not be taught that homosexual behavior is morally wrong.

This wicked, immoral, amoral, demonically instigated Homosexualists agenda, wants to completely cast OUT Almighty God’s moral code altogether, by removing ALL restrictions on sexual expression, except forcible rape. Incest, polygamy, fornication, adultery and sexual practices too repugnant to describe here, would become normalized socially and even protected by law.

Children would lose the protection of laws that shelter them from sexually predatory adults. As long as a child “consents” to an adult’s sexual advances, the predators would have nothing to fear.

This debased “moral schizophrenia” and acknowledging what every body already knows to be true about homosexuality; that it IS NOT an immutable characteristic like race or sex, but a behavior symptomatic of an underlying emotional disorder, a pathology, not an identity, people afflicted with homosexuality need to be treated with compassion, but they need to be treated, NOT enabled.

The alternative is to further embrace the homosexual agenda, and DIG our cultural and spiritual HOLE ever deeper, where it will become impossible to climb out, and we will join Greece, Rome, Babylon and the rest of history’s once-great, but ultimately failed societies, as mere chapters in some new vigorous civilization’s history books!

As we have seen here on BU, and elsewhere,

“Woe to those who call EVIL good, and GOOD evil; Who put DARKNESS for LIGHT, and light for DARKNESS; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20 Emphasis added)

For, “speaking LIES in hypocrisy, having their own conscience SEARED with a hot iron.” ( 1 Tim. 4:2 Emphasis added)

Stop letting others think for you! TRY THINKING FOR YOURSELF FOR ONCE!

If you can only site old sources.. chances are that the position has been discredited within the field of research.

For weeks now Zoe has been telling us about Israel and its bright people.
How many Noble Prize winners, Physicists etc.
How they are so brilliant that they turned the dessert into such a fertile and prosperous place.
Zoe’s Israel is a bastion of civility and democracy, that he will defend to the death.
Yet still……..

http://www.thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/020220_gay_israel_history.html

What I am here wondering is….what fate awaits Gods chosen for their similar transgressions.

Do you Zoe, still want to continue with this notion that homosexuality brings down Nations….’cause by your own admission, Israel is flourishing.

Ignorant, unable to think critically, ‘majority’ of the world thinkers* can’t make one IOTA of sense, in any mouthing-off, baseless, utterly unhistoric hogwash, redherring strawmanized garbage.

I challenge any of you vacumized brains, to submit researched evidence* objectively refuting the in-depth studies thus posted so far? Counter it, not with childlike folly laced in ad hominem dirt, as a typical children play with, but with CRITICAL, coherent facts!

Failing to do that, continue on with your garbbled ignorance, folks are watching your display!