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Click on image to hear BBC report on Guyana massacre

Analysts Fear Racial Tension Could Spark Further Violence

Calm was reported on Tuesday, in areas of Guyana affected by tensions fueled by the murders of 11 people by a suspected criminal gang last weekend. On Monday, police fired teargas and pellets to disperse hundreds of protesters blocking roads along the country’s east coast. Some groups and analysts, including the human rights association, have expressed concern that tension between Guyana’s ethnic communities could boil over into further violence.

Source: BBC Report

It is prophetic that BU published the article entitled Can Barbados Avoid Escalating Crime & Violence In Neighbouring Trinidad & Guyana? on the 26 January 2008. Our article coincided with the massacre of 11 persons in rural Guyana which is reported to have escalated ethic tensions there. This was a tragic incident and we extend our sympathy to the affected families.

As Barbadians, the unfortunate incident serves to highlight the present danger of an open door immigration policy. We have written ad nauseam on the subject, specifically the impact of Indo-Guyanese on a dominantly Negro nation like Barbados – do a search of our archives using key word ‘Immigration’. It is instructive that Guyana is a country which is split almost down the middle by race, i.e. Indian and Black. It is a country where although the Blacks have enjoyed political power, the Indians have been the economic force in the country. There has been irrefutable evidence manifested through the years of the racial tensions in Guyana. It is a society which continues to struggle to find a basis for sustained harmony between the races. Anyone who challenges this assertion we liken to the proverbial ostrich.

We agree with one commenter who forwarded the view that self-preservation is a natural instinct of animals, the uncivilized kind and it is one which human can do well to learn. We have repeatedly stated that our immigration policy needs to become more efficient. Immigrant labour should be regulated to match demand and the process should be copiously documented. We are amused by the politicians, theoreticians and intellectuals who continue to spout positions based on text book positions. In the Caribbean, we have two living examples of multi-ethnic societies which continue to struggle to find the formula to support coexistence. Why should Barbados experiment with the idea of a growing multi-ethnic society and ignore the perennial racial tensions in Guyana and Trinidad?

We again wish to send out a word of caution to those responsible in our new government to closely examine the current open door policy supported by the past government. It has gotten so bad that illegal immigrants don’t even bother to move around Barbados clandestinely. Ordinary Barbadians can with ease direct the authorities to areas in Barbados where illegal Guyanese can be found in bushels. We have nothing against Guyanese, Indian or Black i.e. in theory. In practice, however, we think that there is sufficient evidence to be concerned. The vast number of Guyanese immigrants are of the unskilled variety and we strongly believe that with a world recession forecasted and the new DLP government’s commitment to slowing capital projects roll-out, excess labour in the construction sector is bound to occur.

Will anyone hear our cry?

246 responses to “Can Indians And Blacks Co-exist In Barbados?”

  1. passing through south Avatar
    passing through south

    indians own the zrs and the businesses in town so it problem ahahahhaha.why travel in a zr when you have your own car at your own convenience and have a family member to take you when you so desire??common sense isn;t it.have you ever did a survey in town and this is fact indians sell cheap yeah and then the same black own businesses sell the same exact thing the indians sell which was bought from the same place overseas,but sell for a much higher price and some ppl like u think its authentic or better quality.what a level of thinking.they are only a very very few stores in town who sell top quality and that is very few.come wid facts

  2. passing through south Avatar
    passing through south

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes


  3. Bimbro & others

    Britain isn’t the only place where the negative effects of the immigrants from the asian subcontinent canbe see;check out France,Germany,Italy AND MOST IMPORTANTLY CHECK OUT FIJI- which has similarities to us here in Barbados.

    Fiji is a small island,indigenous people mainly of african descent,and a mainly christian and peace loving people.

    The indians were brought in the early 1900s to help work the sugar cane fields and quick so they started multyplying and bringing in more of their people fron India etc ,and within a couple of decades they had outstripped the local fijian population.

    Theythen started to openly display clannish behaviour,that is ‘only things indian and keeping to themselves’.
    They also managed to get into the business sector,but more importantly the political arena – and that’s where things got out of hand.

    Fiji,Guyana,Birmingham/England and to a lesser extent Trinidad are all examples for the barbadian people to see and to ensure doesnot happen in our country.

    A word to the wise is enough.


  4. Check out a statement made by a Mr Inshan Ishmael of Trinidad – a used car dealer who operates out of an area called the Bamboo:’He stated that he and others have just returned from offering the people of Guyana ( who suffered the massacre) some help and he is telling the people of trinidad to stand up and fight.

    He also threatened the government of Trinidad that:”if they push him he will push back hard”.

    See the Guyana – Trinidad connection and Indian solidarity.

    Things that make you go hmmm.

    Oh by the way Inshan Ishmael is of indian descent and a financier and supporter of the UNC Basdeo Panday party.


  5. Anonymous, what do you consider to be an asset to society? Have you done the research on Indian immigration across the globe? An asset is anything or person of value in this case to the society. In Barbados it is clear to see the value of Indian immigrants to the society. The older generation have provided low income households with many essentials they readily would not be able to purchase from Dacosta’s , Cave Shepherd etc. Many bajans wudduh had to suck salts had not for de coolie man, Abeds and de other cheap stores you talk about. Why are you complaining about these stores? If you wish you cud open a $1 store if you want and sell your trinkets cuz evuhbody gotta eat. I don’t know you but i don’t think you want to open one cuz. if you did in two twos i’d see a big ride park outside you house. As for ZRs…i doubt you wud have your children riding pun one if you did own dem. De Indian man aint need de ZR he got cars and vans…
    Small stores and ZR’s aside, if you do the research you see that Indians play a much greater role in bim. Check who own de furniture store, jewellery stores, internet and computer places and de restaurants and others properties. How many black bajans have benefited from these businesses? Look at how many bajans employed because of mrs. Ram and others. It is a fact that they are great asset to bajan society. Have you ever been to the doctor in Barbados? Have you every been to a tertiary institution in Barbados? Have you ever needed legal counsel? Sadly you like many bemused bajans only associate SY Adams and Swan Street to the contribution of Indians to bim.
    An asset to society…..i don’t see de Indo-Bajans decaying our society as much as we black bajans do. I don’t see dem robbing and killing, raping and attack tourists, shooting one another for a piece of de drug turf. I don’t see them waiting at the bus-stops outside our secondary schools at 2:30 waiting for a young ting to trouble. I don’t see them in de vans stands and de streets of Bridgetown wid ten cases o’ guiness, nuff hard weed and troubling ever young girl (sexy or not) dat pass. I don’t see dem at sports aand other social events cussing and carrying on, fighting and endangering the lives of others. Open your eyes and your minds.
    You said that Indian immigrants never go into researching and new fields……which planet you live pun? You need to research the contributions of Indian immigrants to countries such as the US, Britain, Canada etc. Who are the doctors, IT specialists, medical researchers etc. Anyone who has studied abroad will tell know that there are many Indian lectures, professors, deans, researchers etc at these institutions. All you have to do is read a medical, scientific or technical journal or publication and most likely de author is Singh, Krishnani, Thani, Patel and whatever names Indians have. I seriously doubt you’ll find the author’s name is Oneche, Ngombi, Mboma and so on. Most of the students who are going to university and coming out at the top of the class are….you guessed it Indian Immigrants. On the flip side, who aint want no education an jus wanna party and fete all de time. Who will generally cause havoc and chaos in these countries. Who duz be killing innocent people in de street, inciting open gang wars in the streets, drug trafficking. Who duz be trying to breed as many women as possible and leff de child without a father figure. Instead of hating on de Indians who are actually doing what you expect an immigrant to do, we should be learning from their approach to life. Just now all Caribbean nationals gine need a visa to travel to England not just de Jamaicans. Stop and think for a minute.


  6. apology accepted passing down south is what i meant to say.


  7. Bajan to de bone – you call yourself eh -hmmm

    I reserve my comments and my strength to arguments that have logic and persons who are capable of thinking beyond what they have been spoon fed.

    I suspect you are mighty pleased of this tacit support by a self confessed indian Passing Down South that you think you must spout that rubbish that you just did.

    I will just make this comment in response to your argument that bajans should have been grateful to the coolie men who went around selling cheap items and trinkets to the bajans who couldnot pay for it at Cave Shepherd – er, – do you think the slaves should have similarly felt grateful to the slaves traders who came offering them trinket in exchange for their brothers and sisters?

    Tell me bajan to de bone,what were these wonderful things the coolie man was offering? – a cheap pair of pants,a plastic bucket?

    Did these items lift the black man out of poverty,or did it kept him/her indebted to the indian man who sold a $10.00 item for $80.00 as the black man paid a little of the pittance he earned for an item which was destroyed even before he was finished paying for it?

    It’s young,naieve persons like you who make me worried for this country.

    You can’t think past what you have been told by other races,that is – that black people are the worst kind of people,they only make children,they only fight and go to jail,they don’t invest,they only like to party and run women and on and on.

    Perhaps you should take a trip to India or Bangladesh and see your argument debunked,because wherever there is a majority population whether it’s indians,white,hispanics all the ills of society e.g. criminal activities,prostitution,broken families manifest themselves in that society.

    So you will see for example more hispanics,more indians displaying the very behaviour you decry about in the blacks.

    Oh by the way was Barbados stagnating commercially until the coolie man trader come along?

    Haven’t you heard about Rollock and Tudor and others.

    Look son I think you better go and learn some more about your people and stop buying into what other races write about us.

    Yes I will like to see persons of african descent move away from a consumer lifestyle and start thinking about more investment.

    But never forget when they do gather up their pennies and start a small business it’s probably people like yourself who boycott their business and go and support the said indian and white business.

    I guess it will take generations to get over this self hating legacy of slavery that they left with black people, but I guess for people like myself,we can’t give up and must plod on- one step at a time.

  8. passing through south Avatar
    passing through south

    Mr anonymous ppl like u just amuse me.I have stated i am indian and because someone has an opinion opposite to that of urs they r the followers of other races.Maybe u shud ask the folks in the country who provided them with school clothes and books and stuff when no one else would not even look at them.Maybe you should ask who provided them with building material and stuff and also give them the price they r to pay for it instead of putting interest on it like the banks and other places.You should ask who is more understanding when payments cannot b made.Maybe u shud ask folks who took them to places like cave shepherd and courts etc when every one refuse them credit or no one were offering credit plans and then ask what was the final price the coolieman charged you on that also.You would b surprise to know that the mark up was of no great value compare to what black businesses charged them.


  9. strong sentiments Anonymous, and i fully understand your feelings towards the oppression of the black man. i observe, research and then fomulate opinions so dont insult my intelligence because i dont share your racial views. the truth still remains that barbados is a black country and the main hindrance to our progression is ourselves if we keep using excuses like the ones you use. why do we keep focusing on slavery. yes we must never forget it and prevent anything remotely close to it ever happening again but it is time….long time in fact dat we stop using dis excuse. use de experiences and build for the future.
    facts are facts and you cant deny the contribution of indo-bajans to our country. i dont need to go to india or bangladesh. i thought we are discussing immigrants i.e people who move from there home to another duh! visit london, toronto, usa and europe. in general do they (indians) do what most of our black immigrants do? i’m not saying many of us don’t progress as we should but i must speak as a generalization. why are we always at the bottom of the scale. the amount of folly i hear and see in london by the black immigrants gets to me. gang wars, afro-carribean african tension, nigerians at war with ghanaians, ethiopians at war wid somalis and bare junk. meanwhile who is buying up most of britain and looking to invest, diversify and prove for the future. i find it hard at times to understand how indians and blacks have been in the uk for such along time and still we are so far behind. many indians are well off and many blacks are poor. you really should research for urself and see who is causing head aches for the law enforcement agencies. who is killing themselves you is making bad for the next generation of caribbean immigrants. then u might start to talk about bombings and islam and whatever…news flash…most indians are hindu. dont deny facts. i black, bajan and proud of that but i’ll never let racial bias and prejudice cloud my judgement and opinions. instead of being bias and racists we should do learn from others. wake and smell de coffee or milo whatever you drink. stop making excuses!!!


  10. It seems Anonymous wants me to change my name from Bajan-2-D-Bone to Black-2-D-Bone based on what he is saying.


  11. Bajan to de bone.

    Sadly you confirm what I already suspected,that you get lost in the arena of logic.

    Sorry to have troubled your small mind.


  12. Anonymous,

    i shall respect your age and the fact that you are approaching senile. no further comment. one love!!!


  13. You are right with what you said. But do not forget the high GOD in HEAVEN looks after HIS own we are all HIS. red, black or white no matter the country, rich, or poor. HE (GOD) looks after every one. thats our faith.


  14. BARBADOS IS A WOUNDERFUL ISLAND AS FAR AS I HEARD. ONE DAY THE TIME WOULD COME WHEN FIRST SHALL BE LAST AND LAST SHALL BE FIRST. WHAT I MEAN IS: ONE DAY THE WOULD BECOME RICH AND THE RICH SHALL BECOME POOR. bth


  15. That was an important and informative contribution, ‘Bajan-2-the-bone’!! So, what’s left for the Barbadians to do???? Surrender their country, lock-stock-and-barrell to the Indians?!!!!

    Where then, shall we own?? Or don’t we need to own, anywhere!!!!

    How much do we concede to the Indians and how much do we retain!!!!

    *************************

    Oh by the way was Barbados stagnating commercially until the coolie man trader come along?

    ******************************

    Excellent point, Anonymous!!! We’ve managed without them before, and can do so, again!!!!

    *****************************************

    but I guess for people like myself,we can’t give up and must plod on- one step at a time.

    ***********************************

    Another, excellent point, ‘A’!! The question is, in your point of view, how do we persuade our own people to adopt a more, serious, ambitious and responsible attitude towards life?!!!!

    **************************

    i find it hard at times to understand how indians and blacks have been in the uk for such along time and still we are so far behind. many indians are well off and many blacks are poor. you really should research for urself and see who is causing head aches for the law enforcement agencies. who is killing themselves you is making bad for the next generation of caribbean immigrants.

    **********************************

    Bajan – 2- the bone, I live in the UK and completely agree with your above statement. However, it’s no mystery to ME who have destroyed the prospects of west indians in the UK with their nightmarish, criminal, behaviour and that is most certainly, Jamaicans!! However, many Bajees r too, much in love with the JAs, for god-knows what reason, to accept this, so I won’t dwell on the point, at this time!!!!

    Now, now, gentlemen, you’ve both made very, important and valid points!! A way to progress this discussion might be to answer some of the questions which I’ve asked above!!


  16. Dear Bajan-2-d-bone,

    I agree with your sentiments.

    Dear David,

    I am sorry if my point wasn’t clear. Bajan-2-d-bone has been better at articulting some of my sentiments, but the cost of living point is important. Let me explain it again in a different way. According to Bajans in polls and reflected in this blog during election time, the most pressing problem was the high cost of living. It is important therefore that those who call for a reduction in immigration levels….. ( which is what the coded message for checks and balances means, because if you want more checks but expect no impact of doing so, then this would just be a waste of tax payers money)….it is important that those calling for a reduction in immigration, understand that this will lead to a rise in our cost of living. Immigration comes will many issues that we have discussed and some we have not, but let us be clear, immigrants lower costs, less immigrants, higher cost of living. The question stands. Are you prepared to accept a higher cost of living for the benefits you see of lower immigration.

    I am sorry if this is not dowen to earth but we need to be honest with people and not just say we want everything, but understand the tricky trade-offs.


  17. The increased numbers of Indians in Barbados, particularly indo/Guyanese has generated a great deal of debate and naturally positions have become polarised.

    In order to be objective and fair, one has to ask is there a problem, and if there is, how can it be addressed and what can both sides bring to the table of discussion to solve the perceived problems.

    That large numbers of black Barbadians are expressing concerns, means there is a problem, one can easily say their fears are unjustified but they are fears, just the same.

    Indians have lived in Barbados for many years, and because of their “small numbers” have intergrated well into Barbadian society, and it would be disingenuous not to concede, that they have made a “positive contribution” to Barbadian society.

    The new influx particularly of indo/Guyanese is of a different order, its difference is due mainly to numbers, when the numbers of a new immigrant population become so large that they have an impact, it is only natural that the indigenous population become alarmed – they do have a way of life that they also wish to preserve, not only Indians – particularly if there is a perception, that some factors in the immigrant’s behaviour are causing concerns.

    What some indigenous people find galling, is that in response to criticisms, however ill conceived, instead of concentrating on the words or persons who level the criticisms, there is a blanket attack on black people and their life styles eg acquistion of consumer goods etc the same consumerism at which they – the Indians – peddle their trinkets.

    It is wise and common sense, to understand not to attack a people who have taken you into their house, that is ingratitude, a rebuttal to criticism is understandable and correct, but to criticise a people whom you are dependent on for a living, is folly of the worst kind.

  18. Ask Peter Wickham?? Avatar
    Ask Peter Wickham??

    BU can you ask Wickham to explain his questionnaires in his polls done in Barbados before election?

    We want to see how he phrased questions about concerns which Barbadians have about immigration, or did he?

    I think Barbadians have been duped about the seriousness of the immigrant problem. It is the reason I feel political polls should be banned 6 months before an election.


  19. Very Insightful ‘ask peter wickham’.

    I too have wondered the same and we know where his bias lies.

    He has been quite open about it almost sometimes to the point of being abusive to callers.


  20. Yeah, let’s ban opinion polls, and while we’re at it posters, adverts and party political broadcasts.

    They all make me think about who I should vote for, and that has to be pernicious.

    Just leave me alone to make my own mind up, after reading The Nation.


  21. I always wonder why, when one has to point out the difficulties and ills of a society, family, or person, immediately the one pointing out the ill is immediately labeled, with some good one like homophobic, xenophobic, and racist, and fascist.

    Over and over again people who are on the outside looking in are saying that Barbados’ un-governed immigration policy that was endorsed and supported by Mr. Arthur and his boys, is going to bite us where the good lord split us.

    We have a right to speak to the social ills and societal degeneration as we see it as Barbadian citizens. If people like Mr. Truss and his ilk had spoken sooner, a lot of mess could have been averted in this country. We said nothing when the Guyanese were coming in like termites in fresh new wood , because we were getting our homes built cheaply, getting our homes cleaned cheaply, getting our homes rented and generally have been able to exploit some of these people.

    We have degraded our way of life as we know it when we can rent out our entire homes, whilst we are still living there in “rooms”, when we can convert our filthy garages into “rooms” by putting up some plywood, when we can convert our now defunct livestock pens into “rooms”, we degrade ourselves and the people we offer them to. But these people don’t forget and they always have a plan as to how they will treat with you according to how you have treated them.

    As a Barbadian I will speak to the social and societal issues, give me what ever phobia you want to but I am going to speak.


  22. Dear Yardbroom,

    I liked the first half of your comment, but didnt understand the last bit. Who are the Guyanese Indians who are critising the indigenous population for our life style? I haven’t seen this on this blog – all I have seen is some embarrassingly ignorant and racist crap about “Indians”.

    What I find really ironic about the comments on this blog in general (not yours) is that the racists spout all this ignorant stuff about “Indians” taking over and owning the country when after 40 years of Independence we still have one group of people in Barbados, however you define them they are not black or brown, who own most of the land, capital and companies. Look at the Barbados share registers of BS&T, Goddards, Sagicor and you will not find alot of Indo-Guyanese names. Do Indo-Guyanese own Cable & Wireless? Digicell? Williams Industries? Rotherley Construction? Sandy Lane? First Caribbean/RBC? Courts?….

    Any analysis of the distribution of power and ownership in Barbados will tell you that this fixation with Indo-Guyanese is a gross distraction from our real problems. Bajan-2-D-Bone has also emphasised that if you examine our pressing social issues, bashment, boys-on-the-block, the underperformanc of boys at school etc, that the focus on the Indo-Guyanese is a gross distraction.

    So I totally agree with you Yardbroom, that to find a solution we need to be better at defining what the problem is and how it interconnects with other issues……


  23. Nat // January 30, 2008 at 1:42 pm

    I NEVER meant to say Canada is perfect. Lord knows it is FAR from pefect. However it is probably the best model we have for diversity and pluralism in the world right now. And if many Canadians held the same viewpoints on immigration as I have seen here, I would be in trouble, many black people would be, many Asians would be etc etc.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    You have got to come here and stay for two weeks or so and hang out in the Bush Hall, Bank Hall, Foster Hall, Belle, City and country areas and you will see why Barbadians are concerned about the immigration problem we are now facing.

    Guyenese bwese Barbadians stink everytime they get the chance, I mean with filthy words, that exposes as deeper problem than we are really willing to confront or deal with.

    He who wears the shoe knows the pinch.


  24. Dear Warrior and Nat,

    I live here. I mix with a few Guyanese Indians, from my kids’ school, from helping around my home, from the builders next door, the doctors and dentists and the people selling in the roti shop and I dont hear what you do.

    Maybe if there was an annonymous blog for Guyanese Indians, some would spout the same racist crap as we are hearing from some of our own people. Which would be a pity and cause for us to work doubly harder for harmony. The solution is not a version of Ian Smith’s Unilateral Declaration of Independence from the rest of the world.

    And the best way to achieve harmony is to show respect for each other and for us all to set an example of showing respect for others in our everday day lives and blogs. This would not be a bad place to start.


  25. All this relaxed immigration came from Barney Lynch wanting to quote big tourism numbers.


  26. passing through south //
    February 3, 2008 at 9:57 am

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    PTS you know you make a point there, but our own people work against us. They would never tell another black person when a house is selling from the bank cheap but they would call someone from another race to give them the inside scoop, ZR and Hired Car licenses and other little perks are given to other people of other races instead of black Barbadians.

    Don’t get me wrong I will never go down the line of “poor black boy”. That is why Mr. ARthur and his boys should be scourged and drugged over the coals because on their watch they allowed greed and corruption to pervade a Government that we gave them to run on our behalf and now most bajans don’t have a pot to piss in.

    In addition I take a issue with the quote above from PTS, not only black Barbadians squander money in the hairy bank and depreciating assets, Indians are men too- a man is a man is a man – and if you take a close look you might get the surprise of you life.

    Finally I hope that no get so foolish as to start calling black Barbadians – Afro Barbadian, I think that would take the cake for me.


  27. Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    Dear Warrior and Nat,

    I live here. I mix with a few Guyanese Indians, from my kids’ school, from helping around my home, from the builders next door, the doctors and dentists and the people selling in the roti shop and I dont hear what you do.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Then you need to quiet your soul and listen, ESPECIALLY if you have builders next door.


  28. Whilst we are talking immigration policy and so on here on this thread, could someone give an honest update on all the asians who are here illegally or under false pretenses.


  29. Thomas Grisham

    I am still waiting for your report of how you personally live this open door philosophy that you so eloquently support….

    You see great benefits in Barbados opening its arms to immigrants – is your home open to strangers? or even neighbors? Have you taken in any of these great Guyanese Indians? or even adopted an orphan bajan child?

    …or is this just an academic exercise for you?

    Don’t you think that the benefits that you espouse for Barbados would also accrue to your family should you bring such new and diverse ‘blood’ into your children’s home?

    I am sure that you would not be put off by the occasional choke and rob situation that may occur in and around your home….

    …I judge people by their fruit – any joker can talk…


  30. Dear Warrior,

    At the end of the day we have to believe in government figures, because if we cannot, we cannot come up with good policy. We will be shooting in the dark, and responding to problems which aren’t there and ignoring those problems which are.

    But it is clear to me that people are very skeptical about government figures. How do we reintroduce credibility in government figures?

    David, this could be an interesting new thread What do you think? Should we have a National Statistics Office that is independent of government?

    Personally, I think the tourism numbers are consistent-ish with the balance of payment figures (these are harder to fiddle because if the cash receipts aren’t there, there is a drain on official reserves).

    Tourism is a net service export in the balance of payments figures. These have indeed grown around the 10% per year mark – though perhaps they could have grown more.

    Immigrants tend to remit cash abroad and so this ends up as a net capital export, and if the tourists were really immigrants we would see the net service export figures falling and the net capital transfer figures rising, and if these trends were big enough we would also see the balance of payments worsening and official reserves falling…….That has not been the case since 2005.


  31. Dear Bush Tea,

    Please re-read my comments. I dont call for an open door policy. I question that we have one. What we may have is lax action on overstayers. I do not support that.

    I argue that we need to consider our capacity, which I estimate to be around 1.5% of the labour force, and manage immigration around that capacity. And I point out that f we were to do so, it probably would not be very different from what we have.

    I also highlight that in our economic position more immigrants has allowed growth to be higher and cost-of-living lower than otherwise and if you want less immigrants, which you do, you must also accept lower overall growth and higher cost of living.

    As for my own home, well dear Bush Tea, if you were my neighbour, you would be very welcome to share my hospitality anytime.


  32. Thomas Gresham // February 3, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Dear Warrior,

    At the end of the day we have to believe in government figures, because if we cannot, we cannot come up with good policy. We will be shooting in the dark, and responding to problems which aren’t there and ignoring those problems which are.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    How can we believe in Government figures , when we were lied to consistently for the term s of BLP rule with CWC expectancy firgures with illegal immigration figures, with figures of the cost of capital projects.

    How can we trust gov. figures.

    the DLP has inherited a hard task.


  33. But Warrior, what do you think about my suggestion to restore credibility to these numbers? Do you have any other suggestions of how to restore credibility.


  34. passing through south //
    February 3, 2008 at 9:57 am

    when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey.some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead. 2 de bone if i took ur comment out of context my apologizes.
    *************************************
    PTS – you should keep passing right on…

    Have you ever stopped to wonder why, with the kinds of character you describe for Bajan men, Barbados is easily the BEST small country in this World?

    Have you thought why all these ‘hard-working’ thrifty foreigners with great work ethics all come from failed countries, from which everyone is running?

    It is these same ‘lazy blacks’ who have created the environment where anyone can come here and feel welcome, at home and where jokers who could not even eat in their own country can come and become rich.

    Whites, Indians, Trinis you name them – all come here and do well for themselves. What they all fail to recognize is that there is much more to good life and success than hard work and making money.

    …have you considered that Bajans may have a great secret that is hidden in our liming, drinking and calling at women… ask our prophet.
    He is none other that Richard “Lowdown” Hoad.


  35. Thomas Gresham

    Sir, while I appreciate the invitation to be your guest, I am absolutely sure that you KNOW that this is NOT what i am talking about.
    You know full well that the article and the concerns of Bajans refers to the attitude promoted by people like you and Owen Arthur that immigration is a ‘good thing’ and that we are paranoid to be concerned about it.

    This prevailing nonsense leads to the situation where already loose controls are ignored and we now see the resulting mess.
    Your ‘mouthing’ about tighter controls is just that…

    Immigration in a small country like Barbados is nearly identical to inviting strangers to live in your home…. with your family.

    Anyone would be happy to have Bush tea as their guest. Presidents, Prime Ministers etc have done so (as recently as this year in Europe) so inviting me to your home is no great feat. I am talking about inviting street characters and people of completely different cultures to move into your home….
    ..that is what you are encouraging Bajans to do.

    Even when controlled, this is a tricky business -far less when we are talking about refugees from failed countries.
    Even when your daughter seeks to marry a stranger and bring him into your family you will be apprehensive and worried – why do you think that Bajans should be different…

    Immigration is a matter that should be given the highest possible thought before new persons are allowed to join a small family like Barbados. In some cases, there will be great mutual benefits as in a good marriage, but the dangers are real, dark and inevitable if great care is not taken.


  36. Thomas Gresham you said: “So, if you want less immigration you will get higher living costs and lower growth – IF NOTHING ELSE WERE TO CHANGE (emphasis added). US economists would call that “Economics 101” as it is an irrefutable observation in theory and fact.”

    I am not an economist but my brief research on the subject suggests that there is not a consensus among economists on the link between population growth and economic growth.

    So, I have a few questions:
    – by economic growth do you mean real GDP, or real GDP per capita? Which is more important?
    – what is the impact of technology and labour productivity on the link between population growth and economic growth?
    – how do we factor in the increased toll on our country’s environment?
    – what of the impact on property prices (including rents) and water supply? Will we be able to be provide quality education and healthcare to all?
    – what of the impact on our balance of payments? (if economic growth is not in foreign exchange generating sectors then will there not be greater pressure on the balance of payments?)
    – what is the expected impact of increased population on wages for locals? Will an increase in inflation (given a lower rate of population increase) necessarily result in a decrease in real wages?

    I’ll stop there for now.


  37. Can we also add Brutus that the new DLP government is on record of implementing a slow down in capital works projects as a deliberate strategy to slow down government spend. We expect this will have a significant impact on the supply of labour to the construction sector which will lead to labour capacity being created.

    What happens with all the illegals currently said to be working in the construction sector?


  38. Dear Brutus,

    Thank you for your question. The issue is not population growth but economic immigration (the kind we have in Barbados as opposed to refugees for example). The link between population growth and economic growth is indeed complex. But less so for economic migrants. Immigrants work harder for less than locals, partly because they are still better off than at home, because there is no welfare for them and if they hang around doing nothing they will certainly be sent back.

    By working harder for less they reduce costs in an economy and improve its capacity for work. Although my fellow economists disagree on many things, there is not much disagreement about that. Economic migrants have played an important role in the economic growth (per capita) of the US, Canada, Australia, UK and elsewhere. Now, economics is called the “dismal science” because for every benefit there is often some trade-off and cost. Economic migrants bring net benefits, but there are costs. There are social-cultural costs that have been discussed on these pages, though I am with Bajan-2-D-bone on an assessment of these. One way of addressing these is to consider what our capacity limit is, and I reckon somewhere around 1-2% of the labour force per year would be a reasonable limit. There are socio-economic costs for certain groups, principally, for low skilled, low productivity Bajans who get priced out of the market.

    The economists solution to this, is not to lower growth and raise costs to protect this group, not to slow the whole economy to protect its least efficient part, but to use the benefits of the economic growth and lower costs to spend real resources to re-train and support this group with income transfers while keeping the immigration. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to discuss this. This is the route taken by many other countries such as the US, Canada, Australia, UK etc.


  39. Dear Thomas Gresham,
    You asked me “who are the Guyanese Indians who are critising the indigenuous population life style on this blog?”… in reference to my post.

    passing through south// Feb 3, 2008 at 9.57am
    “when the blacks were busy buying expensive cars and feeding all the women their money and blinging all the jewellery the indians were buying zr’s and so whose fault is that hey. Some people just want to enjoy the fruits of life then complain when others move ahead”…

    This is a blanket denigration of black Barbadians, on whose backs the Indians hope to make their fortune. Well the blacks are complaining now.

    passing through south// Feb 2, 2008 at 9.10am
    …” I am not shame to say I am of Indian heritage”…

    It is true he/she did go on to say he/she was born in Barbados, but it is clear from the post with whom he aligns himself.

    I too was born in Barbados, and can trace my family here since 1783, however my allegiance is to Barbados and Barbadians. I would not use a blanket method to criticise fellow Barbadians, black, white or Indian. If I have to criticise, I would say “some,” because that is obviously common sense.

    In my comment, I was clear in making a distinction, between Indians who have lived in Barbados for some time, and made a positive contribution to Barbadian society and the new indo/Guyanese immigrants who are causing concern.

    Passing through in his/her remarks made specific reference to …”when the blacks”…. that was a blanket denigration and was unnecessary.

    The blacks of whom he/she think so little of, must be doing something right, or Barbados would not have the reasonable safe and peaceful society it has, to which the self same and their families – who know how to do things so well – have to leave their own countries of which they are very proud of, to come and live in Barbados, black Barbadians do have some pride and intelligence and understand when others are discourteous and disengenuous.

    Thomas Gresham, this is in no way a criticism of your post – and is not meant to be – it is an exposition of my opinion on the discussion.


  40. Thomas Gresham~ didn’t Clyde Mascoll make your economic argument and it was shot to bits by Professor Michael Howard?

    A commenter mentioned Economics 101. Isn’t accepted that the best Economic Programs are those which use the best theoretical concepts meshed with the social requirements of the environment which is being managed.

    In other words Mr. Gresham the wants of the people must be factored. It is call looking after the well-being of the society. What do we live for then?


  41. It is normally NOT our party’s intention or policy when making contributions to this blog on any subject or issue before hand to refer to or connect with names or pseudonyms over contributions made, mainly because of the sometimes degeneration or minimization or peripheralization of argumentative analysis that may likely ensue or that may likely take place after a contribution that refers or connects with these names or psuedonyms is made, and such a situation being that this possibility is so much more likely than the opposite.

    Anyhow, in making this type of contribution now PDC risks this even more, given the very divisive, emotive but realistic nature of subject/issue at hand: Can Indians and Blacks co-exist in Barbados?

    But, before we proceed any further, we wish to thank esp. David, Anonymous, Analyst, Thistle, and Bush Tea, among a few others, for bringing forward great clarity and consistency in the arguments that they have presented so far in their contributions, and for bringing forward equally great logic, rationality and preciseness as are properly founded in their contributions in this instalment. Certainly, you have done well and you have made PDC – a people’s progressive nationalist party of Barbados – feel proud. Thanks to you.

    However, this essence of this contribution is directed to a Thomas Gresham, who continues to regale us, or greater said, misinform us – contributors to this blog – with his own brand of automated, mechanized, and, some times, very predetermined responses to some very serious, inveterate, human, societal problems that Barbadians face on a daily basis in this country, and which are responses that could MAINLY be seen as being so reminiscent of how so many so-called economists in Barbados, including former prime minister Mr. Owen Arthur, react to or deal with many of these same problems. Thus, PDC has a serious very bone to pick with you – Thomas Gresham!!

    How dare you suggest that in order for us – Barbadians – to have lower costs of living, greater competition, and greater so-called economic growth in Barbados that they must expose themselves to increased immigration? Or that, if we have decided to accept less immigration, we must do so with higher living costs and lower so-called economic growth, all other things remaining equal? PDC has never read a worst and most barbarous kind of ignorance posing and pretending to be rational in its tenor on this blog!!

    The fact of the MATTER, is this, that the vast majority of the masses and middle classes of people of Barbados, while having no fundamental problems with the Indians who would have voluntarily immigrated here years ago with their own things Indian and who would have gone as far as having/had their own progenies born and raised in Barbados, DO HAVE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS WITH, AND THEREFORE DO NOW WISH FOR, TOO MANY, AS SURELY THERE ARE, NON-NATIONALS FROM GUYANA COMING HERE TO LIVE. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT!! ( IN PDC CASE WE SAY INDIAN GUYANESE, BECAUSE OF THEIR RACIST NATURE AND BECAUSE OF ALL THE VARIOUS PROBLEMS THAT HAVE SINCE COME ABOUT, AND MOST DIRECTLY, FROM THE TIME THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO THESE PARTS BY THE BRITISH UNDER A DIVIDE AND RULE SYSTEM)

    And, to argue that because increased immigration has brought so many benefits, as well as costs, to so many other countries, does NOT mean that Barbados, a small land scarce country, mineral resources scarce country and one that has a crisis prone so-called economic system, must have an open-door policy to immigrants whether or not they will overstay their time. To argue such is to undoubtedly argue in a way so as to SERIOUSLY offend the patriotism and nationalism of the President and Executive and Members of the People’s Democratic Congress, and thousands of other Barbadians!!

    Certainly, whereas PDC regards that nationals of all countries should always be allowed to travel to and visit other countries, we know also that it certainly bodes ill for nationals and immigrants in the same countries, when it is seen that the presumption must that of to make a country more developed, increased immigration must be a sine qua non centrepiece of any of these countries national strategic plans. What we in PDC do know, however, is that there are so many ways to reduce the cost of living in Barbados, to increase competition and to promote material production, wealth and prosperity for people in Barbados, and on a reasonable and sustained basis, without having an open door immigration policy, even if properly regulated increases in immigration are to come about thereafter to supplement higher growth and develepment of Barbados.

    For a future PDC Government, some of these ways are: the Abolition of Taxation; the Abolition of Interest Rates, the Abolition of Motor Vehicle Insurance; the Abolition of ALL Exchange Rates Parities with the Barbados Dollar; Making Imports of Goods and Services Zero-“priced” at ALL points of entry; Making Exports of Goods and Services paid for in local currency/”prices”, and, yes, properly modernizing and rigorously enforcing our Immigration laws and policies. See our Pre-election Manifesto@www.somassfreedem.org

    PDC


  42. Correct, in line 8, paragraph 1- pseudonyms; in line 1, paragraph 4 – the essence; and in line 7, paragraph 6 – NOT.

  43. notesfromthemargin Avatar
    notesfromthemargin

    Thomas….

    It is unfortunate that the positive contribution made by immigrants to the Barbados population is not highlighted more often. And often many people mix up legal an illegal immigrants and consider them to be one and the same.

    Some people may consider the layman’s response to be xenophobic, however I see it as rooted in the failure of policy makers to seriously explain the issue. Barbados has benefitted tremendously from immigrants in the past and continues to do so. For example; much of the middle class that fled Guyana in the 1980’s ended up in Barbados and those persons continue to make contributions in building our economy.

    It is interesting that many of the arguments used on both sides of the debate in Barbados, are mirrored in the similar debate that is happening in the USA.

    Marginal


  44. For a future PDC Government, some of these ways are: the Abolition of Taxation; the Abolition of Interest Rates, the Abolition of Motor Vehicle Insurance; the Abolition of ALL Exchange Rates Parities with the Barbados Dollar; Making Imports of Goods and Services Zero-”priced” at ALL points of entry; Making Exports of Goods and Services paid for in local currency/”prices”, and, yes, properly modernizing and rigorously enforcing our Immigration laws and policies.
    …………………………………………………………………
    IF and I reiterate the word “IF”. How in heaven will we be able to manage an economy that will be plagued by all giveaways and no collections. It will reminisce a business owner buying stock for $20,000.00 and earning only $4,000.00 due to giveaways. This will be a clear passage for a bankrupt country.


  45. This article is in the Guyana Stabroek News of February 4, 2008. Very interesting what they are doing there in Suriname regarding the official logging of illegal immigrants…

    Analyst
    __________________________

    STABROEK NEWS

    SURINAME LOGS ILLEGALS

    In the last seven weeks, Suriname has logged 15,000 foreigners living in the country illegally, including many Guyanese.

    According to a Caribbean Net News report, in the Nickerie district, authorities registered over 2,000 illegal individuals, mostly Guyanese nationals.

    The report said that several individuals indicated that loss of personal documents such as passports and red tape prevented the renewal of permits. In one case, a 65-year-old Guyanese-born man indicated that he had been living in Suriname for 51 years, of which 38 has been illegally.

    “I came to Suriname when I was fourteen and at that time my mother was taking care of all arrangement for my legal stay. Since she died when I was 27 and the house I was living in burnt down, destroying all my documents, I never report to the authorities here again,” said the man, waiting for his turn to fill in the documents.

    According to an anonymous official “We won’t expel people based on the information we have collected. We now have to find ways to address these issues and implement actions to ensure that they receive legitimate residence in the country
    ______________________________


  46. Dear David,

    No you must be mistaken. The idea that economic migrants bring net benefit to costs and growth and general economic welfare has not been shot down, but is the perceived wisdom of the majority of the economics profession.

    Yes, we must take into account the views and culture of populations and not just their economic welfare. But there is nothing more damaging to the well being of the poor than slow growth that brings unemployment and rising prices that erode their purchasing power.

    You may decide that you want to reduce immigration for social reasons, but be clear that there are negative economic consequences.

    Here is a short extract from a recent book by Philippe Legrian on Immigrants that was shortlisted for the FT Business Book of the Year Award.

    Historical evidence certainly suggests [immigration] would do a lot of good: the United States’ stunning economic growth between 1870 and 1920 coincided with the migration of tens of millions of Europeans to America. A study of fifteen European countries finds that a 1 per cent increase in the population through migration is associated with a boost to the economy of between 1.25 per cent and 1.5 per cent. The World Bank reckons that if rich countries allowed their workforce to swell by a mere 3 per cent by letting in an extra 14 million workers from developing countries between 2001 and 2025, the world would be $356 billion a year better off, with the new migrants themselves gaining $162 billion a year, people who remain in poor countries $143 billion, and natives in rich countries $139 billion. And those figures grossly underestimate the likely economic gains from the added diversity and dynamism that immigrants bring. Foreigners don’t just slot in to vacancies left by local people; they bring different skills, varied views, diverse experiences and a zeal for self-improvement that combine with the talents of local people to boost innovation, productivity and economic growth. Would the US be as dynamic and successful without all its immigrants trying to get ahead?”

    The other historical evidence is the economic costs of barring immigrants, as many European countries and Japan have found.

    No amount of wishful thinking will change the economics of the issue.


  47. Thomas Gresham we read your response again and was alarm by your unwillingness to understand another view. Although we accept the argument that there is some symbiotic relationship between immigration and real GDP growth what you seem to be deliberate missing is that it must be planned/managed. All the countries you mentioned, especially Canada have all tried to match the incoming skills of the immigrants with the strategic needs of the country.

    In Barbados what we have is an open door policy which has now resulted in a huge number of illegal immigrants stressing our infrastructure i.e. Police, Health, Schools etc.


  48. Dear Frankology,

    Please see our last contribution re BU’s instalment on former Minister Lynette Eastmond Hits the Ground Running, for a little more insight and understanding of this philosophy.

    Yours truly,
    PDC


  49. Dear David,

    It is you that is deliberately missing the point in order to pursue your agenda an agenda I have shown to be unfounded in economic evidence. Your agenda is transparent given the threads that you have initiated and your shifting the goal posts whenever your argument fails an economic test. Let me explain.

    You claim that all you are are asking for is greater “management” or “checks and balances”. The logical implication is that you want greater management and checks and balances to lead to less immigration. Because you are not calling for more immigration, because you keep on stressing that the current levels are causing stresses. And it would be a waste of tax-payers money to have more management but not impact immigration levels.

    The economics points out that lower immigration means higher costs of living and lower growth, so your next refuge is that you would manage immigration to change its mix, away from unskilled to the skilled. The economic evidence is that it is the unskilled immigrants that allows costs to fall, economic growth to accelerate and provides the room and revenues to “upskill” our workers.

    The rational response to genuine issues of cultural and infrastructure limits to immigration is as follows:

    1. Toughen up policies towards overstayers. The most effective way to do this is to get tough on Bajan employers of overstayers. Give them large fines and exclude them from government employment or contracts. (You can always tell undercover racists when their principal ideas are to beat up on immigrants who are poor rather than deal with the greedy local employers).

    2. Identify what these infrastructure limits are, balance that with the benefits and set a rate for net new residency permits. The lowest figure that would still have a positive impact on our economy is between 1-2% of our labour force per year.

    3. You can split residency permits in half, with half going to those who have certain skills and half to a random lottery decided in their home country (with safeguards against corruption of our officials).

    This is rational, realistic, unracist management of immigration. Tell me why you disagree with that. But if we were to do these three things, we would reduce the amount of immigrants classified as illegal, but we are unlikely to have much less immigration than we do have. Forcing immigration lower when we have a high cost of living problem is economically insane.

    We are a small economy. One of the key constraints of size is that the forces of competition and innovation are weak and yet to survive in a globalised world we need to be internationally competitive, or go the route of the PDC. The weakness of competitive forces has contributed to a ossified structure and ownership of our economy that does not favour its black majority. The way to change this is through immigration not xenophobia. The measurable economic benefits of immigration “grossly underestimate the likely economic gains from the added diversity and dynamism that immigrants bring. Foreigners …bring different skills, varied views, diverse experiences and a zeal for self-improvement that combine with the talents of local people to boost innovation, productivity and economic growth.” (P. Legrain, Immigrants, 2007)

    We need this more than Canada needs it, but you want us to be far less open than they are. (I am not advocating Canadian levels of immigration because their population density is far lower than ours, but note that in the periods of rapid growth in Canada, managed immigration meant that 25% of the population were born outside Canada, today the figure is still as high as 16%.


  50. The economics points out that lower immigration means higher costs of living and lower growth, so your next refuge is that you would manage immigration to change its mix, away from unskilled to the skilled. The economic evidence is that it is the unskilled immigrants that allows costs to fall, economic growth to accelerate and provides the room and revenues to “upskill” our workers.

    Thomas Gresham it is often said that patience is a virtue and in my exchanges with you we have come to appreciate it. In our reference to Canada we made the point that Canada has attempted while trying to manage immigration to match incoming skills with what is required to build capacity in that economy. It other words they have a strategic plan. We never stated that there is no place for unskilled workers. We are starting to believe that you are making statements to be provocative only. Even though Canada is held up as a model for exemplifying a good immigration policy it still has its flaws. What about Barbados which has an ad hoc system?

    The other point we wish to make that the current system of managing immigration which allows Guyanese and others to enter the country six or seven times despite being declared persona non grata is sufficient evidence we think to make the point that the management framework of our immigration system needs some work.

    Now tell us what part of this comment can be construed as racist?

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